Shadowboxer Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 According to the description for the Jack-of-all-Trades feat, characters can use any trained skill without training. Language is a trained skill. Does this feat allow characters to speak any or all languages?
Dr Archeville Posted August 19, 2008 Posted August 19, 2008 Hrrmmm... languages are a special skill which you only need one rank in to be completely fluent. Contrast this to all the other skills where you need many ranks to be proficient. JoAT lets you try any skill, but chances are you won't be doing anything spectacular with it (unless you've got a really high associated ability score), so if JoAT were applied to languages it should be similarly limited. I'd say that, at best, JoAT would let you know a few dozen words in all the most common languages, but not enough to hold anything more than the most basic conversation in any of them, and even those will be riddled with grammatical errors. ("What's this, then? 'People called Romanes, they go the house'?" "Its says, 'Romans go home'!" "No, it doesn't!") You can ask questions but only simple ones that can be answered with one word or a gesture.
MBCE Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 I'd say that, at best, JoAT would let you know a few dozen words in all the most common languages, but not enough to hold anything more than the most basic conversation in any of them, and even those will be riddled with grammatical errors. ("What's this, then? 'People called Romanes, they go the house'?" "Its says, 'Romans go home'!" "No, it doesn't!") You can ask questions but only simple ones that can be answered with one word or a gesture. I'd have to disagree. Jack of all Trades should not apply to languages at all. If you want your character to be able to speak many different languages, simply buy the comprehend power. Letting people get a benifit from the feat for languages just over complicates things. For the effect above, I would go with the Benefit feat and say that the character has been exposed to various languages.
Shadowboxer Posted August 20, 2008 Author Posted August 20, 2008 The Comprehend power would work for superpowered characters, but what about non-powered ones? Purchasing ranks in the language skill would be the way to go, but if you want a character who knows many languages that could get very expensive. How would the Benefit feat work in this case?
Dr Archeville Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 Well, remember, Powers aren't necessarily Powers -- that is, not all require mutated genes or alien physiology, many can be gained via training (look at all the Shadow can do, or Iron Fist). And from a cost effectiveness point of view, Comprehend 1 (understand several languages at once, but can only speak one at a time) costs two points, the same as eight languages; buying more languages than that would be cost-ineffective. Also, I've seen Comprehend with "takes time to decipher new languages you've not been exposed to," a -1 pp drawback.
Folkert Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 Sorry about butting in here, but are you sure about this, Dr. A? [...] Comprehend 1 (understand several languages at once, but can only speak one at a time) costs two points, [...] The most common interpretation I've seen used (in RL and on ATT) is that Comprehend 1 allows you only one of these two options, but not both. (Which, in turn, would drive the cost up to 4pp for two ranks or 16 languages.)
eyeonthemountain Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 I would probably second the powers are not necessarily powers option. Or buy it as a power, even an innate one if you really do not want it nullified, and call it whatever you like. Lotta martial artists gets strike after all.
Dr Archeville Posted August 20, 2008 Posted August 20, 2008 Sorry about butting in here, but are you sure about this, Dr. A? The most common interpretation I've seen used (in RL and on ATT) is that Comprehend 1 allows you only one of these two options, but not both. (Which, in turn, would drive the cost up to 4pp for two ranks or 16 languages.) D'oh! You're right, I was in a rush and misread the entry in ULTIMATE POWER. Rank 1 -- speak any language one at a time, or understand all at once. Rank 2 -- everyone who hears you understands what you're saying as if you're speaking their native language (semi-implied alternative: speak any one language at a time and understand all at once.) Rank 3 -- speak and understand all languages at once.
Shadowboxer Posted August 22, 2008 Author Posted August 22, 2008 For me, the distinction between taking an ability as a power or as a feat or skill is more than cosmetic. When a martial artist takes Strike, for example, that implies the ability is above and beyond normal human capabilities - the fighter in question is able to channel enough chi to punch through concrete - and thematically that makes sense. I think taking Comprehend as a power for a baseline human would not make sense unless there's some kind of rational explanation. For regular humans, language should be a raw skill to reflect training and exposure rather than an inexplicable talent. It all boils down to a matter of opinion. What kind of descriptors do players use to explain their characters' abilities is the main point, I believe.
MBCE Posted August 23, 2008 Posted August 23, 2008 For me, the distinction between taking an ability as a power or as a feat or skill is more than cosmetic. When a martial artist takes Strike, for example, that implies the ability is above and beyond normal human capabilities - the fighter in question is able to channel enough chi to punch through concrete - and thematically that makes sense. I think taking Comprehend as a power for a baseline human would not make sense unless there's some kind of rational explanation. For regular humans, language should be a raw skill to reflect training and exposure rather than an inexplicable talent. It all boils down to a matter of opinion. What kind of descriptors do players use to explain their characters' abilities is the main point, I believe. Then it becomes simple. If a character wants to know a language, they buy it by putting points into the skill. The Jack of all trades feat should not work with languages.
Shadowboxer Posted August 25, 2008 Author Posted August 25, 2008 Then it becomes simple. If a character wants to know a language, they buy it by putting points into the skill. The Jack of all trades feat should not work with languages. I think you're right on this one but technically I can see no reason why it shouldn't. There is nothing in the text mentioning languages, as far as I know. However, that loophole provides players with too much "power" for such a low cost. They could speak any language for one measly power point! Perhaps they can spend a Hero Point in conjunction with the Jack-of-all-Trades feat to be able to speak a certain language when the situation arises.
MBCE Posted August 25, 2008 Posted August 25, 2008 I think you're right on this one but technically I can see no reason why it shouldn't. There is nothing in the text mentioning languages, as far as I know. However, that loophole provides players with too much "power" for such a low cost. They could speak any language for one measly power point! Perhaps they can spend a Hero Point in conjunction with the Jack-of-all-Trades feat to be able to speak a certain language when the situation arises. Well there are a lot of little loopholes in the system like that. Without them, where would our munchkins be? Seriously though, if a player wants to spend a hero point for the effect, I have no problems with that.
Heridfel Posted August 25, 2008 Posted August 25, 2008 Jack of All Trades allows you to use any skill untrained, including skills that normally cannot be used untrained. It doesn't change anything else about those skills. Language is different from all other skills in that it is not based on an ability and does not use checks. The important part in Language is that you must take a rank in Language in order to be fluent in a language. Jack of All Trades does not change this. You can use Language untrained, but you still need to take a rank for each language in which you wish to be fluent. There is no functional difference between having Jack of All Trades and not having it when it comes to Language.
Shadowboxer Posted August 27, 2008 Author Posted August 27, 2008 Language is different from all other skills in that it is not based on an ability and does not use checks. I think that's the fundamental piece of the argument. The language skill is not structured like other skills and so the feat cannot be easily adapted. Having a sound argument against using this feat would fill in those loopholes players enjoy finding from time to time. :D
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