Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 The question arose earlier in the chat about whether or not Attack Specialization (Grapple) increased your attack bonus when grappling (and is thus capped by PL) or increased your overall grapple bonus when grappling, and thus is not capped by PL. I argued from the text in the core book that Attack Specialization (anything) increases your attack bonus, and thus even Attack Bonus (Grapple) would be capped at your attack bonus. After doing some searching, however, it seems that the general consensus at the AtomicThinkTank is that Attack Specialization (Grapple) provides a bonus to grappling (not just an attack bonus) and thus is not subject to PL caps (because grapple bonus is not capped). I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, but I did find two post where he alluded to increasing your grapple bonus "way above" 2 x PL "with feats." The only other "thing" in the game that increases your grapple bonus that is not subject to PL is Super Strength. So then the question becomes, "Is Limited (usable only while grappling) a -1 or -2 Flaw when bought on Super Strength?" I IMed several of my co-GMs that I've been playing with for years and got 3 different answers. 2 said it was a -1 Flaw. 2 said it was a -2 Flaw. And 2 said it was probably a -2 Flaw but they'd never allow it. The "-2ers" convinced me. So . . . if you become convinced (as I have . . . pretty much) that Limited (usable only while grappling) is a legit -2 Flaw, then you'd have no grounds for rejecting Attack Specialization (Grapple) because . . . 1. Super Strength is also not capped by PL. 2. They cost the same: 1 PP per +2 bonus. Make sense? Thoughts?
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 The question arose earlier in the chat about whether or not Attack Specialization (Grapple) increased your attack bonus when grappling (and is thus capped by PL) or increased your overall grapple bonus when grappling, and thus is not capped by PL. I argued from the text in the core book that Attack Specialization (anything) increases your attack bonus, and thus even Attack Bonus (Grapple) would be capped at your attack bonus. After doing some searching, however, it seems that the general consensus at the AtomicThinkTank is that Attack Specialization (Grapple) provides a bonus to grappling (not just an attack bonus) and thus is not subject to PL caps (because grapple bonus is not capped). I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, but I did find two post where he alluded to increasing your grapple bonus "way above" 2 x PL "with feats." The only other "thing" in the game that increases your grapple bonus that is not subject to PL is Super Strength. So then the question becomes, "Is Limited (usable only while grappling) a -1 or -2 Flaw when bought on Super Strength?" I IMed several of my co-GMs that I've been playing with for years and got 3 different answers. 2 said it was a -1 Flaw. 2 said it was a -2 Flaw. And 2 said it was probably a -2 Flaw but they'd never allow it. The "-2ers" convinced me. So . . . if you become convinced (as I have . . . pretty much) that Limited (usable only while grappling) is a legit -2 Flaw, then you'd have no grounds for rejecting Attack Specialization (Grapple) because . . . 1. Super Strength is also not capped by PL. 2. They cost the same: 1 PP per +2 bonus. Make sense? Thoughts?
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 The question arose earlier in the chat about whether or not Attack Specialization (Grapple) increased your attack bonus when grappling (and is thus capped by PL) or increased your overall grapple bonus when grappling, and thus is not capped by PL. I argued from the text in the core book that Attack Specialization (anything) increases your attack bonus, and thus even Attack Bonus (Grapple) would be capped at your attack bonus. After doing some searching, however, it seems that the general consensus at the AtomicThinkTank is that Attack Specialization (Grapple) provides a bonus to grappling (not just an attack bonus) and thus is not subject to PL caps (because grapple bonus is not capped). I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, but I did find two post where he alluded to increasing your grapple bonus "way above" 2 x PL "with feats." The only other "thing" in the game that increases your grapple bonus that is not subject to PL is Super Strength. So then the question becomes, "Is Limited (usable only while grappling) a -1 or -2 Flaw when bought on Super Strength?" I IMed several of my co-GMs that I've been playing with for years and got 3 different answers. 2 said it was a -1 Flaw. 2 said it was a -2 Flaw. And 2 said it was probably a -2 Flaw but they'd never allow it. The "-2ers" convinced me. So . . . if you become convinced (as I have . . . pretty much) that Limited (usable only while grappling) is a legit -2 Flaw, then you'd have no grounds for rejecting Attack Specialization (Grapple) because . . . 1. Super Strength is also not capped by PL. 2. They cost the same: 1 PP per +2 bonus. Make sense? Thoughts?
Toptomcat Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 By that metric, it's actually modestly underpowered compared to the power-based version, but 3 levels/pp would be too much entirely. I like it.
Toptomcat Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 By that metric, it's actually modestly underpowered compared to the power-based version, but 3 levels/pp would be too much entirely. I like it.
Toptomcat Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 By that metric, it's actually modestly underpowered compared to the power-based version, but 3 levels/pp would be too much entirely. I like it.
hero4hire Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, He did weigh in clearly here.
hero4hire Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, He did weigh in clearly here.
hero4hire Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 I could not find a post where SK weighed in directly, He did weigh in clearly here.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Good observations. When I said that Limited (only while grappling) was a -2 flaw, I should have said/meant to say that Limited (only provides a grapple check bonus) was a -2 flaw. That's what I intended . . . but I guess it needed some "twinkproofing" ;)
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Good observations. When I said that Limited (only while grappling) was a -2 flaw, I should have said/meant to say that Limited (only provides a grapple check bonus) was a -2 flaw. That's what I intended . . . but I guess it needed some "twinkproofing" ;)
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Good observations. When I said that Limited (only while grappling) was a -2 flaw, I should have said/meant to say that Limited (only provides a grapple check bonus) was a -2 flaw. That's what I intended . . . but I guess it needed some "twinkproofing" ;)
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 He did weigh in clearly here. That's pretty clear. I wonder what feats he had in mind when he wrote: At the basic level, grapple bonus tends to be no more than (PL x 2) simply because that's the limit on melee attack and Str bonus (the primary components), but things like feats and Super-Strength can drive it up considerably higher. It doesn't really change my opinion (at least not right away . . . I'll let it sink in for a bit). I'd think I'd still allow Attack Focus (Grapple) to violate PL, because a player could legitimately get the PL cap bursting bonus another way.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 He did weigh in clearly here. That's pretty clear. I wonder what feats he had in mind when he wrote: At the basic level, grapple bonus tends to be no more than (PL x 2) simply because that's the limit on melee attack and Str bonus (the primary components), but things like feats and Super-Strength can drive it up considerably higher. It doesn't really change my opinion (at least not right away . . . I'll let it sink in for a bit). I'd think I'd still allow Attack Focus (Grapple) to violate PL, because a player could legitimately get the PL cap bursting bonus another way.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 He did weigh in clearly here. That's pretty clear. I wonder what feats he had in mind when he wrote: At the basic level, grapple bonus tends to be no more than (PL x 2) simply because that's the limit on melee attack and Str bonus (the primary components), but things like feats and Super-Strength can drive it up considerably higher. It doesn't really change my opinion (at least not right away . . . I'll let it sink in for a bit). I'd think I'd still allow Attack Focus (Grapple) to violate PL, because a player could legitimately get the PL cap bursting bonus another way.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Hey, there's a lot of twinks out there... ya gotz ta be specific. I usually just throw them out of my games at the first inkling. Problem solved.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Hey, there's a lot of twinks out there... ya gotz ta be specific. I usually just throw them out of my games at the first inkling. Problem solved.
Barnum Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Hey, there's a lot of twinks out there... ya gotz ta be specific. I usually just throw them out of my games at the first inkling. Problem solved.
Veiled Malice Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Okay, but that doens't answer an underlying question of mine - does Melee Focus add into your Grapple Bonus, or just Base Attack Bonus? I already figured Attack Specialization wouldn't, since that's specific to one weapon. However, it could be argued that Grappling is part of Melee, thus sharing in the bonus. Thoughts? Or hopefully answers?
Veiled Malice Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Okay, but that doens't answer an underlying question of mine - does Melee Focus add into your Grapple Bonus, or just Base Attack Bonus? I already figured Attack Specialization wouldn't, since that's specific to one weapon. However, it could be argued that Grappling is part of Melee, thus sharing in the bonus. Thoughts? Or hopefully answers?
Veiled Malice Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Okay, but that doens't answer an underlying question of mine - does Melee Focus add into your Grapple Bonus, or just Base Attack Bonus? I already figured Attack Specialization wouldn't, since that's specific to one weapon. However, it could be argued that Grappling is part of Melee, thus sharing in the bonus. Thoughts? Or hopefully answers?
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