Hellbound Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I'd like a little advice on how to build an adversary of Hellhound's using the following concept: She's a Chinese witch who summons minions to hunt him down, but she uses a nefarious shortcut to draw more power than a minor spellcaster (PL6), like herself should wield. Using a rituals, she Astrally Projects and then summons demonic and undead spirits which merge with her soul, granting her power and the ability to give the formless, gestalt entity physical form. So, basically... she sits in a summoning circle, steps out of her body, conjures a one of a variety of disembodied spirits, merges with it and produces a very nasty monster to go do her bidding. Limitations? Well, the amount of time it takes to perform the ritual, naturally enough. 'Could be as much as a few hours to get everything just right, so this isn't something she'd be doing on the spur of the moment. Other than that, not much beyond the typical vulnerabilities that hellish spirits have to put up with. She would, of course, inherit all of the weaknesses to holy water, blessed artifacts or exorcisms that come with the territory of raiding the mortal world from infernal realms. Advantages? A wide variety of superhuman forms would become available to her. Whatever demon from her arsenal she choose to summon and merge with, those are the powers she'd gain. I suppose that the easiest way to work that is to limit the classes of 'minions' she'd be able to summon to the following; Warrior (melee combat), Sniper (Ranged Combat), Stealth (Sneaky) and Transporter (Movement Powers). That sounds like four different applications of the Summon (Minion) power, each with their own specialties and variable special effects. I think that's the way she should be built, but I just don't have enough experience to know for sure. Make the Minion power dependent on the use of Astral Form and have her body unconscious and vulnerable while she's wreaking havoc? Perhaps this should actually be Alternate Form that's dependent on the use of Astral Form and Summon Minion? I'm not sure, but I'm looking for suggestions.
Dr Archeville Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Wouldn't be Astral Form, since that's effectively just Communication + ESP. The only things you can use are mental sensory effects. Sounds closest to Summon (just build them so they have the same mental ability scores, skills and feats the summoner does to represent the shared consciousness) with the Unconscious Flaw from Duplication, and the Action Flaw & Drawbacks to extend the activation time.
Hellbound Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 Thanks -- I'd like to ask about the following line from the Summon (Minion) description: You always have the same minion unless you apply power modifiers allowing you to summon different minions. So... which power modifiers are they talking about? Would that be the Alternate Power feat? Also, I was considering taking the Astral Form power for the char (hereafter known as 'Jennifer Wu'), just to give her something to do while her projected soul is not being possessed by demonic spirits. There would probably be a fifth class to the summoning power in this case -- that being a formless spirit which has not been merged into the gestalt entity. There's no reason why she couldn't call one up and send it out as an immaterial spy without giving her soul over to it.
Dr Archeville Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Thanks -- I'd like to ask about the following line from the Summon (Minion) description: So... which power modifiers are they talking about? Would that be the Alternate Power feat? That'd be the Type extra, which is not allowed here. Though you could have an Array of Summons (Summon Bob the Basher; AP: Summon Fred the Flayer.)
Hellbound Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 Array of Summons is what I was thinking, yes. Do you have advice on how to represent a whole host of potential spirits as opposed to just four or five? I've already mentioned breaking them up into classes (Warrior, Sniper, Stealth, Transporter, Spirit), but what about variations within individual classes? Suppose she could manifest as a Sniper which fires blasts of intense cold one day, and then a different Sniper which fires off shards of flying steel the next? The same Effect built with a differing Medium?
Ecalsneerg Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Variable Descriptor from Ultimate Power might do what you're looking for, if you essentially want the same powers with a different descriptor to them.
Hellbound Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 An open ended Variable Descriptor isn't the whole story, however. If Jen would summon a lightning based demon, then she wouldn't be able to access fire powers with a simple free action. She'd have to release the current gestalt and go through the summoning process all over again to access a new descriptor.
Ecalsneerg Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Well, as a 1 pp feat you can't exactly cut any point off of it. Just put it down as a complication if you suddenly need lightning powers, should be able to get them RAW, but can't due to the constraints on your powers.
Hellbound Posted February 6, 2009 Author Posted February 6, 2009 Okay, I'm just not clicking on how Arrays are built and the Alternate Power feat is used. I'll throw out this line from the Ultimate Power book... The Array power structure is located in the Power Structures sec- tion (see page 108). Yeah, okay, no information under the Array effect listing, so let's check out the first line of the Array description on page 108. You have a collection or Array of (Array rank x 2) power points you can use to duplicate other effects... Yeah? Okay, so how much does each Array rank cost in Power Points? They didn't say under the Array effect listing. Further, I'm under the impression that Arrays are built using the Alternate Power feat? So is an Array's rank equal to the number of Alternate Powers, or is it equal to the rank of the primary power? What if the primary power has a cost of 1pp per rank or even a fractional cost? What if I can buy three ranks of the primary power for a single power point? Does that mean I can have an alternate power built on more power points than the primary power? Sorry, but the damn thing's not clicking with me at the moment.
Dr Archeville Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Array = A Power with some Alternate Powers. Blast 12 (PF: 1 AP) AP: Enhanced Str 24 is an Array. So is Blast 12 (lightning; PF: 2 APs) AP: Blast 8 (ball lightning; Extra: 40-ft. Burst Area) AP: Paralyze 12 (taser-touch) And so is Summon Energy Controller 10 (PF: 3 APs) AP: Summon Paragon 10 AP: Summon Powerhouse 10 AP: Summon Speedster 10 Alternate Powers are built on no more power points than what are in the 'base' power.
Hellbound Posted February 6, 2009 Author Posted February 6, 2009 You have a collection or Array of (Array rank x 2) power points you can use to duplicate other effects... So was the above line a misprint, or am I not reading it correctly?
Dr Archeville Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Not a misprint, but it could have been worded a tad better. You could build a Summon Array as Summon Array 10 (PF: 3 APs) [23pp] Base Effect: Summon Energy Controller 10 AP: Summon Paragon 10 AP: Summon Powerhouse 10 AP: Summon Speedster 10 Or as Summon Array 15 (PF: 3 APs) [33pp] Base Effect: Summon Energy Controller 10 (Extra: Fanatical) AP: Summon Paragon 10 (Extra: Fanatical) AP: Summon Powerhouse 10 (Extra: Fanatical) AP: Summon Speedster 10 (Extra: Fanatical) (This is how I did Belphegor's "Demonic Powers" array)
Hellbound Posted February 6, 2009 Author Posted February 6, 2009 Summon Array 10 (PF: 3 APs) [23pp] Base Effect: Summon Energy Controller 10 AP: Summon Paragon 10 AP: Summon Powerhouse 10 AP: Summon Speedster 10
Moira Morley Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Jen's only a PL6 character. Would she be allowed to summon a PL10 minion?PC: No. They're only limited to half your PL by the board's house rules. NPC: Maybe, rules for NPCs are lax.
Dr Archeville Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 So I'd be looking at: Summon 10 would give Jen 150 points to spend on each of her Minions. Not using the Fanatical Extra could conceivably represent the fact that she's been merged with a demonic spirit and not always 100% in control of the gestalt entity at all times? Bingo! Jen's only a PL6 character. Would she be allowed to summon a PL10 minion? If she's a PC, no, House Rules here are that she'd be limited to PL 3 summoned critters. Which does not mean you're limited to Summon 3, since the rank of Summon just determines how many points you get to work with, not the PL of the summoned critter. (And even barring that House Rules, most of the folks I've talked to don't let a character summon something more powerful than their PL/the campaign PC PL, under-building the Summoner and concentrating on making the summoned critter hit the PL caps.)
Hellbound Posted February 6, 2009 Author Posted February 6, 2009 I think she's going to have to be an NPC, then. The entire reason for corrupting her own soul by merging it with a demonic spirit is to bring forth creatures more powerful than herself. Of course, as an NPC, she also wouldn't be limited to PL6.
Dr Archeville Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I think she's going to have to be an NPC, then. The entire reason for corrupting her own soul by merging it with a demonic spirit is to bring forth creatures more powerful than herself. That's kinda what I meant when I said "under-building the Summoner and concentrating on making the summoned critter hit the PL caps" As an NPC, she might be given some leeway on the Summon House Rules. 'Course, you could just go with Alternate Forms, since that actually seems mechanically closest to what you're describing. (Why must you submit things that are so difficult? )
Moira Morley Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 'Course, you could just go with Alternate Forms, since that actually seems mechanically closest to what you're describing.Either that or Possession limited to summoned demons
Dr Archeville Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Either that or Possession limited to summoned demons Heh, yeah, that'd be an even closer match... but where's he gonna find some demons to posses? >_> <_> >_> *Belphegor hides*
Ecalsneerg Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Alternate Form in Ultimate Power seems to have the Projection flaw on it, leaving your unconscious body behind. And as it technically isn't a minion, it shouldn't run into any problems with the board rules and PL, while still having effectively the same effect. As an aside, Doc, you mentioned a while ago possible talks of making the minion rules a bit less restrictive. Did that come to anything?
Moira Morley Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 If I may make a suggestion on minion limits for PCs? How about 2 levels lower than the player. As of now, minions dont improve until the character gets two levels. A PL7's PL3 minion is sorta useless.
Dr Archeville Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Alternate Form in Ultimate Power seems to have the Projection flaw on it, leaving your unconscious body behind. And as it technically isn't a minion, it shouldn't run into any problems with the board rules and PL, while still having effectively the same effect. *re-reads Alternate Form entry in UP* Gah, how'd I miss that! Yes, that is pretty much exactly what you want, Hellbound. As an aside, Doc, you mentioned a while ago possible talks of making the minion rules a bit less restrictive. Did that come to anything? Still being hashed out.
Hellbound Posted February 7, 2009 Author Posted February 7, 2009 Perhaps this should actually be Alternate Form... Now which one of these smilies over here represents whistling innocently...
Dr Archeville Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Now which one of these smilies over here represents whistling innocently... It's next to the one representing Ref Irritation for when you kept pursuing the Summons route, and never went back to mentioning Alt Form.
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