Dr Archeville Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 :P Anyway, Alternate Form, Projection, maybe a Flaw/Drawback on Activation time?
Hellbound Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 That could certainly work. One of the advantages of handling this as Summoning is that Jen could shift all damage that the gestalt entity takes to the demonic spirit, thus leaving her body whole. Alternate Form doesn't seem to have that advantage without associating a healing effect for when the power's shut down. But that's fine -- summoning involves contracts all the time. I'm sure one of the stipulations the demonic spirits insist on is that Jen's soul takes the brunt of punishment. I'll check out some sample builds on AF and see how that works out.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Still being hashed out. Order of hash browns is up ;)
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Order of hash browns is up I don't like hash browns Well, at least Gestalt makes more sense with these rules, but I'd still not want to play a character who had minions as anything other than cheap thugs. But, let's avoid derailing the thread.
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 But, let's avoid derailing the thread. Don't see why not -- most of my builds apparently end up as train wrecks anyway Is there a maximum number of power points that a character can spend on any single power based on PL caps? I didn't see anything mentioned under the Power Level charts in the Core rules book or in FCPbP's house rules section. Skill levels are limited, yes, so it surprises me that they wouldn't make a similar ruling in regards to powers.
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 There isn't actually. So long as you don't break PL caps, you can have your whole character as 150 pp of powers.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 I don't like hash browns Not even if they're scattered, smothered, covered, chunked. diced, feathered, peppered, capped, and topped? Well, at least Gestalt makes more sense with these rules, but I'd still not want to play a character who had minions as anything other than cheap thugs. But, let's avoid derailing the thread. Yes, well, the Refs do still want some limits. And we're trying to have games focusing on characters, not armies of mooks. Is there a maximum number of power points that a character can spend on any single power based on PL caps? I didn't see anything mentioned under the Power Level charts in the Core rules book or in FCPbP's house rules section. Skill levels are limited, yes, so it surprises me that they wouldn't make a similar ruling in regards to powers. Like the Gecko says, the only hard limit is that imposed by PL. That said, Refs are completely within their rights to veto something like the following: Transform 10 (humanoids to beasts [4/rank]; Extras: Duration/Continuous, Range/Perception; Flaw: Action/Full Round, plus Linked Transform 10 (humanoid minds to bestial minds [3/rank]; Extras: Alt Save/Will, Duration/Continuous, Range/Perception; Flaw: Action/Full Round) [5/rank + 4/rank = 9/rank]; PF: 9 alternate Powers of up to 90pp each) [99pp] AP 1: Blast 10 (roiling chaos; Extras: 50-ft. Diameter Cloud Area, Penetrating, Selective Attack, Linked Confuse 10 [Extras: 50-ft. Diameter Cloud Area, Selective Attack]) (Roiling Chaos) AP 2: Deflect 10 (all range; Extras: Action 3/Reaction, Range/Ranged, Reflection) plus Teleport 8 (800 ft./2,000 miles; PFs: Change Velocity, Easy, Turnabout) (Spatial Manipulation) AP 3: Emotion Control 10 (Extras: 50-ft. Burst Area, Contagious, Duration/Continuous [lasting]; Flaw: Sense-Dependent [voice]) plus Comprehend 3 (speak and be understood in all languages simultaneously) plus Enhanced Charisma 20 plus Enhanced Feats 4 (Fascinate 4 [bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform/Singing]) (Bewitching) AP 4: Enhanced Feats 4 (Attack Specialization 4 [unarmed]) plus Enhanced Strength 24 plus Protection 10 (Extra: Impervious) plus Immunity 12 (Critical Hits, Life Support, Starvation & Thirst; Flaw: Only while in contact with earth) plus Regeneration 35 (Total Regeneration; Flaw: Source/Earth) plus Super-Senses 4 (tracking tremorsense) plus Super-Strength 7 (Blessings of Antaeus) AP 5: Enhanced Intelligence 24 plus Enhanced Skill 12 (+12 Search) plus ESP 9 (all senses; PF: Subtle) plus Mind Reading 10 (PF: Subtle) plus Quickness 10 (x2,500; Flaw: Mental only) (Semi-Omniscience) AP 6: Illusion 8 (all senses; Extras: Damaging, Duration 2/Continuous, Range/Perception; PFs: Progression 9/500 ft. area, Selective) (Limited Reality Alteration) AP 7: Nauseate 10 (eternal bliss; Extras: Alternate Save/Will, Aura, Duration 2/Sustained [lasting], Linked Drain Wisdom 8 [Extras: Alternate Save/Will, Aura, Duration 2/Sustained; PFs: Slow Fade 8/1 point per month]) (Eternal Bliss) AP 8: Telekinesis 24 (Str 120; Extras: Damaging on 10 ranks, Range /Perception; PF: Precise, Subtle) (Telekinetic Mastery) AP 9: Transform 10 (anything into anything else [6/rank]; Extras: Duration/Continuous, Range/Perception; Flaws: Action/Full Round) (Matter Mastery)
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 That said, Refs are completely within their rights to veto something like the following: Aw, man, there goes my surprise NPC for next month. Now I have to start all over. Say, here's an actual question... it's been suggested that I use the Variable Descriptor power feat to represent her ability to draw her summons from a vast host of demonic entities. While each Sniper Class summons, for example, all have the same stats, they each grant their powers under a differing descriptor. Lightning breath, fireballs, shooting spikes, laser beam nipples... and so on, are each granted by summoning and merging with a different demonic spirit. In such a case, should the Variable Descriptor power feat be purchased and applied to the Array itself, each Alternate Power in the Array or should it be applied to powers on the individual builds of each alternate form? Further, should the following Complication be applied at any point: Variable Descriptor must be set when each summining ritual is completed and the choosen Alternate Form is taken, and may not be changed until a new summoning ritual is completed and a new Alternate Form is choosen. Or is that simply the way existing game mechanics work in regards to applying Variable Descriptors to Alternate Forms?
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 My main issue is that you still won't allow the Heroic extra on Summon, despite the fact that's basically what the Sidekick feat is to the Minion feat, and literally what Gestalt has. It means you can't have a fairly weak summoner whose power is simply summoning up someone who does have some, like Jakeem Thunder and the Thunderbolt. It's actually more effective to have loads of cheaper mooks than have one powerful one, as anyone facing it'll take 10 on their attack roll and cold-clock it.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 My main issue is that you still won't allow the Heroic extra on Summon, despite the fact that's basically what the Sidekick feat is to the Minion feat, and literally what Gestalt has. It means you can't have a fairly weak summoner whose power is simply summoning up someone who does have some, like Jakeem Thunder and the Thunderbolt. It's actually more effective to have loads of cheaper mooks than have one powerful one, as anyone facing it'll take 10 on their attack roll and cold-clock it. Not necessarily -- the Minions still gets all the benefit of any Protection or whatever else it has to protect it from attacks. And for someone like Jakeem Thunder, you should have the summoned thing be the main char and the much weaker summoner be a Minion or Sidekick (and also, as mentioned, Weak Punk who Summons Great Big Thing to do everything for him isn't something we'd want here). (Plus, the Thunderbolt's a PL X entity, like Mr. Mxyzptlk. Not the best example to use for any sort of balanced comparison. ) Also, if you're comparing Sidekick & Minions, I'd point out that since Sidekicks effectively costs three times what Minion does, Heroic's too good an extra for Summon as it stands now.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Ecal, I apologize, I hit Edit instead of Quote and erased the bit you'd directed to Hellbound re: Variable Descriptors. Sorry.
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 Ecal, I apologize, I hit Edit instead of Quote and erased the bit you'd directed to Hellbound re: Variable Descriptors. Sorry. That's okay -- I'd already caught that bit and was still wondering at exactly which point the Variable Descriptor and/or Complication should be applied. There's the overall array cost (the cost of the primary power + all of the Alternate Powers + the Varibale Descriptor power feat), the individual Alternate Powers (each built under its own set of effects, descriptors and modifiers including the Variable Descriptor power feat), or the powers listed out on the Alternate Form itself (Damage, for example, being bought with the Variable Descriptor to represent a variety of attack possibilities). 'Not sure where on the sheet it should be listed, or where the additional cost for the Power Feat should be applied.
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 The complication'd be listed under complications, but I'm not 100% sure on the Variable Descriptor bit. I'd say maybe for each Alternate Form, which works out the same cost as applying it to the whole array anyway. Not necessarily -- the Minions still gets all the benefit of any Protection or whatever else it has to protect it from attacks. Yeah, it still gets all the benefit, but most things are still likely to hit it, and if you fail a save by 1 your whole minion is out until it recovers. That could take a while, and until then you've lost a not insignificant investment in pp. And for someone like Jakeem Thunder, you should have the summoned thing be the main char and the much weaker summoner be a Minion or Sidekick (and also, as mentioned, Weak Punk who Summons Great Big Thing to do everything for him isn't something we'd want here). How would that work out mechanically, as technically with Sidekick and Minion both entities would be around permanently. It also, by the rules here, would mean that when the stronger entity is absent then the player wouldn't get credit towards IC posts. Maybe you and the other ref'll disagree, but to me that's like penalising Captain Marvel for posting as Billy Batson. (Plus, the Thunderbolt's a PL X entity, like Mr. Mxyzptlk. Not the best example to use for any sort of balanced comparison. ) I thought that was no longer the case after Day of 'change the guidelines for magic but don't tell us what they are' Vengeance? Also, if you're comparing Sidekick & Minions, I'd point out that since Sidekicks effectively costs three times what Minion does, Heroic's too good an extra for Summon as it stands now. For 15 pp of Sidekick, you pay 3 pp. For 15 pp of a Heroic Summon, you pay 3 pp as well, but 4 pp is probably a fairer comparison as Sidekicks are Continuous (I can't really see Permanent being a flaw here).
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 Not entirely -- if the Variable Descriptor feat were to be applied only to the total cost of the array, then it'd only be counted once (1 application of the Variable Descriptor = 1pp). If it were applied to each Alternate Power, then it'd be applied 5 times -- once for each planned class of demonic entitiy (Spirit, Sniper, Warrior, Stealth and Transporter). Further, since each Alternate Power can't be built on more power points than the Array itself, that would seem to indicate each Alternate Form would only be built on 19pp for a 20pp array. Of course, if the Variable Descriptor was expected to be applied to individual powers within each of the alternate forms themselves, then the cost to Jen Wu herself would, logistically, be greatly reduced as opposed to applying it directly to powers listed on her sheet. Man, questions like this never came up in Champions. Well, not until the introduced Power Pools, anyway :(
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Not entirely -- if the Variable Descriptor feat were to be applied only to the total cost of the array, then it'd only be counted once (1 application of the Variable Descriptor = 1pp). If it were applied to each Alternate Power, then it'd be applied 5 times -- once for each planned class of demonic entitiy (Spirit, Sniper, Warrior, Stealth and Transporter). Oh, I thought you were applying it to the array as a whole in that example. Since you didn't seem to understand them earlier, and the Array structure does nothing buying APs doesn't do, I'll only elaborate if pressed further Basically, Alternate Powers don't work like that. There's is one thing that increases the cost of an alternate power from 1 pp, and that is making it dynamic. Feats for each AP are bought using the pp it gives you.. Further, since each Alternate Power can't be built on more power points than the Array itself, that would seem to indicate each Alternate Form would only be built on 19pp for a 20pp array. Don't use the Array structure. Seriously, don't use it, it overcomplicates things. Even if you can understand them, comprehension only brings understanding of how pointless they usually are. Basically, build it like this. Alternate Form 5 (Spirit form, 25 pp of powers, Flaws: Projection, PF: 4 Alternate Powers, Variable Descriptor [different demon types]) AP: Alternate Form 5 (Sniper form, 25 pp of powers, Flaws: Projection, PF: Variable Descriptor [different demon types]) AP: Alternate Form 5 (Warrior form, 25 pp of powers, Flaws: Projection, PF: Variable Descriptor [different demon types]) AP: Alternate Form 5 (Stealth form, 25 pp of powers, Flaws: Projection, PF: Variable Descriptor [different demon types]) AP: Alternate Form 5 (Transporter form, 25 pp of powers, Flaws: Projection, PF: Variable Descriptor [different demon types]) This sort of thing is why I say play a couple of simpler games and slowly build up to complicated characters :P
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Yeah, it still gets all the benefit, but most things are still likely to hit it, and if you fail a save by 1 your whole minion is out until it recovers. That could take a while, and until then you've lost a not insignificant investment in pp. That's something that's never been made clear, as far as I know: if a Summoned Minion is KO'd or even killed, can you Summon it again the next round and have it be fine? For some concepts I can see this as valid (summon zombies when on a corpse-strewn battlefield; you're not summoning the same zombies but creating new ones), but not others. How would that work out mechanically, as technically with Sidekick and Minion both entities would be around permanently. It also, by the rules here, would mean that when the stronger entity is absent then the player wouldn't get credit towards IC posts. Maybe you and the other ref'll disagree, but to me that's like penalising Captain Marvel for posting as Billy Batson. Faulty analogy, since Captain Marvel/Billy Batson's not Summon, it's either an Alternate Form or a Normal Identity thing (or both). Mechanically... you're right, I was thinking of the M&M 1E suggestion. Still, since a Summoned thing can't/shouldn't be a PL higher than what the Summoner is allowed to be (otherwise PL Caps become meaningless for any summoner), if you want to make Weak Kid who Summons Powerful Thing, you'll need to seriously under-build the Summoner. Which is back to that slippery slope of "Crippled Near-Useless Guy who Summons Powerful Entity to do everything for him" which we have little to no desire to see. I thought that was no longer the case after Day of 'change the guidelines for magic but don't tell us what they are' Vengeance? I don't think those alterations would matter, since the Thunderbolt was revealed/retconned as being a 5th Dimensional being, like Mxyzptlk and Quisp/Qwsp, and so isn't using magic per se. (The Thunderbolt's real name, or as close as can be pronounced by Third-Dimenisonal beings, is Yz.) Hrm, scratch that: I just did a search on Wikipedia, seems an ish of JSA Classified has said that the Thunderbolt Genie is operating under some new restrictions due to the "Tenth Age of Magic." For 15 pp of Sidekick, you pay 3 pp. For 15 pp of a Heroic Summon, you pay 3 pp as well, but 4 pp is probably a fairer comparison as Sidekicks are Continuous (I can't really see Permanent being a flaw here). Yes, but for 15pp of Minion, you pay 1 point, or Summon 1 for 2pp (cost increase from being able to summon/dismiss them at will). So -- as you point out -- "Summon Heroic Sidekick" should be 4pp, 3 for 15pp Sidekick + 1 for summon/dismiss.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Also, keep in mind that Variable Descriptor will just let you change the Descriptor of any powers, not the effects. It'd let you go from Blast (heat) to Blast (cold), but not Fatigue (heat stroke) to Paralyze (biting cold).
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 Yeah, that's why there's the five different classes, Doc. Otherwise I'd push for a single alternate form that could do anything it wanted, which should never get past even the most liberal restrictions. But this way I can build a warrior that fights with a spear, a warrior that fights with a sword or a warrior that fights with its claws. All three use the same general build, but the special effects change in each case. Then there's the Flame Sniper (Blast: Heat), and Lightning Sniper (Blast: Electricity), etc... Cover all of the general bases that Jen might want to hit with five appilcations of the Alternate Power and vary the Descriptors on each. Where that might fall down is in the Transporter build since Flight and Teleportation aren't the same effect. Some variation might be built through creative use of the Super Movement effect, but I haven't even gotten that far yet. Aw, man, so instead of having trouble building one complicated NPC, now I'm shooting for building six? I must be nuts... I should just go back to building Spider Monkey-Bat and work my way up like Sneerg suggests.
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 That's something that's never been made clear, as far as I know: if a Summoned Minion is KO'd or even killed, can you Summon it again the next round and have it be fine? For some concepts I can see this as valid (summon zombies when on a corpse-strewn battlefield; you're not summoning the same zombies but creating new ones), but not others. Unconscious and dead minions disappear. Defeated minions recover normally except they recover from death as if they were disabled. You cannot summon a defeated minion until it has com- pletely recovered. Your summoned minions also vanish if your effect is turned off, countered, or nullified. So yeah, you have to let them heal properly before they come back from wherever it is you pull out your minion. Hammerspace? I'm not sure if that's in the core book or not, I've yet to transfer that PDF to my new laptop. <.< Faulty analogy, since Captain Marvel/Billy Batson's not Summon, it's either an Alternate Form or a Normal Identity thing (or both). I don't think it's that faulty in that, even though he is the puny weak guy who has to summon up the power of Shazam, he still counts as the same character for pp award purposes. I'm not trying to say it's mechanically the same thing, but rather a similar concept using very different rules for the purposes of player awards. Something that is mechanically similar to the real Captain Marvel but almost identical to the concept I'm positing here is Mar-Vell, during the time where (iirc) he and Rick Jones traded places in the real world and another dimension. Summoning up another entity, but he ceases to be there so it probably would be working up as Alternate Form/Normal Identity. Which is back to that slippery slope of "Crippled Near-Useless Guy who Summons Powerful Entity to do everything for him" which we have little to no desire to see. I'm not really talking about Near-Useless, but more Useful in Different and Interesting Ways. For example, Captain Marvel Jr. is a superpowered fighter, Freddy Freeman is a competent reporter. To use examples closer to my point, Mar-Vell is a trained fighter, Rick Jones has connections with half the Marvelverse, so I'd build him as the one with good social skills. The Thunderbolt is the powerful magical entity, Jakeem, like Rick Jones, is the one with the Connected and Contacts feats and good social skills. Ash's Pokemon blast/zap things into next week, Ash can actually speak more eloquently than 'Pika Pika!'. Pikachu is a sidekick bought outside of the pokeball device containing summon. I did not put too much thought into the latter, honest. For 15 pp of Sidekick, you pay 3 pp. For 15 pp of a Heroic Summon, you pay 3 pp as well, but 4 pp is probably a fairer comparison as Sidekicks are Continuous (I can't really see Permanent being a flaw here). Yes, but for 15pp of Minion, you pay 1 point, or Summon 1 for 2pp (cost increase from being able to summon/dismiss them at will). So -- as you point out -- "Summon Heroic Sidekick" should be 4pp, 3 for 15pp Sidekick + 1 for summon/dismiss.
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Well, why not bump up the price rather than ban it outright? Because the Refs don't want overly-cluttered battlefields, and we want to focus on the characters and not their powers.
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 And Hellbound, I wouldn't outright say 'start simple', but rather say to go away... You'd be amazed at how often I hear that :mrgreen: Since Jen's intended to be (most likely), just an NPC adversary of Hellbound's, I can always focus on writeups for the Gestalt entities before revealing the mastermind herself (which seems to be the one with the most complicated power construction). Work a few bugs out before finalizing a sheet, even if that requires a bit of minor ret-con'ing.
Ecalsneerg Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Because the Refs don't want overly-cluttered battlefields, and we want to focus on the characters and not their powers. But if you just have one summon, what's the difference between roleplaying the relationship between the hero and his minion in the same way as roleplaying the relationship between a hero and his sidekick, which isn't being restricted very much. Hellbound, you better go away when I say so or you get beaten like Sandy gets beaten. :twisted:
Hellbound Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 Feh. I live in Iowa -- I don't think it's physically possible for you to hurt me any more than that :P
Dr Archeville Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 But if you just have one summon, what's the difference between roleplaying the relationship between the hero and his minion in the same way as roleplaying the relationship between a hero and his sidekick, which isn't being restricted very much. Because if that's the sort of relationship that exists, it should be done as Character & Sidekick, and the sidekick has Teleport or some similar power so he can appear when needed. Summon isn't for "Summon Robin," it's for Summoning Minions. Feh. I live in Iowa -- I don't think it's physically possible for you to hurt me any more than that Careful, he's Scottish. He could to toss a caber at ya.
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