Regen and Toughness Saves

[Hellbound]

The fight that Hellbound is currently in (as well as chars I've ran into in other campaign worlds), has me wondering about something. Is there a reason why Regeneration isn't factored into power level caps? It seems a bit odd to me that the game regulates how well a character can save against damage, but it puts no restrictions on how quickly that character can recover after failing to save.

Just seems a bit... odd, is all.

[Dr Archeville]

Because, strictly speaking, it doesn't factor into the things PL Caps limits.

You are quite right in noting that Regeneration can definitely tip the odds in someone's favor, though. For a rather good article/essay/thing on how "non-PL capped" things can (and perhaps should) affect the PL of a character, check out The Limits of PL at the ATT. (Yes, it's long; reading is good for you.)

Specifically, on Regeneration, the writer has this to say:

Regeneration: Regeneration runs into pretty much the same issues as Self-Only Reaction Heals. The slower ones are pretty much a non-issue in most games; but even the one round versions can be problematic, and the no-time ones can be counted on to constantly peel off the accumulated bruises and/or injuries are a good bit of what makes characters go down in M&M games. I would recommend strongly to add a virtual Toughness or two for those who regenerate both injuries and bruises in no time; certainly make it two if they can recover Staggered in one round or less. Disabled and most of the others can be ignored, and a judgement call will be needed in the interim cases (injured only in no-time for example, or bruises and injuries but only with one round (few people will take out the time unless they have nothing better to do, or have simply built up a massive number, in which case its too late).

There is one case that is sufficiently problematic I simply suggest not permitting it at all: Recovery from Unconsciousness. At a single point for the full round, this is sufficiently attractive for many people that you could well end up with characters who never stay down short of exotic methods. Villains who buy this will almost certainly not make the GM at all popular, and may well bring out the more bloodthirsty tendencies of players as they get tired of dealing with it.

Watch Traits: Constitution.

[Hellbound]

Yeah, I was thinking that utilizing some virtual toughness modifier for regeneration sounded like a good idea -- looks like I wasn't alone. Of course, that'd affect Hellbound himself since he can regen bruises.

Currently I've been wracking my nuts all morning trying to figure out how to take down Wolverine over there. Short of killing him in a single stroke (and the heroes are pretty light in terms of dealing lethal damage)... I'm pretty much coming up empty.

Ah -- though I suppose that depends on whether or not the "Bruised or Unconcious" level of Regen handles both Bruised AND Unconcious, or whether it has to be declared as one or the other.

[Ecalsneerg]

One or the other, and it has to be declared at character creation.

[Moira Morley]

So, someone with maxed our Regen doesn't need a toughness score?

[Hellbound]

Sort of sounds like that. Right now I'm wondering just how useful it'd be to stun/stagger the guy. Granted, that can give us a single round assist, but it doesn't sound like either condition will accumulate into unconciousness.

That's where we need to take him, but it'll take getting Wolvie to miss his toughness save by 15 or more. Moira's winding up a DC28 save for the guy, so maybe we'll get lucky and see a 2 on the roll.

Ooh, wait... since we're getting three attacks against him per turn, it might not be that tricky to stagger him twice before his regen kicks in. There's a thought...

[Ecalsneerg]

Aw, c'mon, Arrowhawk could beat Wolvie and he'd still have to struggle compared to Divine and Hellbound. The answer on how to is simple: change tact.

Yeah, high-level Regeneration means you can't pound them into unconsciousness. Arrowhawk would at this point change to using Snares and Stuns, rather than Blasts. Similarly, Divine and Moira shouldn't punch him into next week, but use your large grapple modifiers to pin him. If he's stick beneath two super-strong bruisers, how does he grapple his way out? I mean, Regeneration doesn't count against your defensive power level, but Super-Strength doesn't either.

[Hellbound]

Tried grappling -- got a DC31 Toughness Save for my trouble

Wolvie's got a 19 Grapple of his own, don't forget, and Rage: 2. That'd be a 21 Grap vs. a 21 Grap (untill Hellbound is Fatigued), and a 20 Grap. Given that we'd only have +2 from multiple grapplers, he still has a pretty good chance of breaking any hold we lay onto him.

But what do we do once he's on the ground? Hellbound could try for a choke hold, but that'd be 26 rounds before he even has to start making saves. Sitting on the guy doesn't take him out. Eventually he'd get loose and start wearing us down with his penetraing, lethal damage.

I'm thinking a better tactic would be for Hellbound to grapple while Moira and Avenger tries to get the stagger-stagger (crawl, crawl...), result.

[Dr Archeville]

I'm thinking a better tactic would be for Hellbound to grapple while Moira and Avenger tries to get the stagger-stagger (crawl, crawl...), result.

And then Avenger feeds? :twisted:

[Moira Morley]

And then Avenger feeds? :twisted:

dundunduuuuun!

[Hellbound]

Hey, whatever takes the dude down!

Huh. Can Avenger feed if Wolvie's only pinned by Moira and Hellbound, or does he need to be a little less mobile for that to happen?

[Dr Archeville]

dundunduuuuun!

It is a real possibility -- with the "Source: Blood" flaw on his Regen, Avenger only regenerates on the rounds he's using his Drain Con/drinking blood.

Huh. Can Avenger feed if Wolvie's only pinned by Moira and Hellbound, or does he need to be a little less mobile for that to happen?

Avenger's Drain isn't limited to only grappled foes, so the unholy vampire can drink him like a Capri Sun pouch if he's pinned by his partners-in-crime. ;)

[Hellbound]

Of course, Hellbound doesn't know that so he can't suggest the tactic. Although he HAS already thought of holding the guy still for the other two to pound on. That got him severly skewered, but he may actually realize that was just a lucky shot.

But Avenger seems to be pretty protective about his nature. He doesn't seem to typically let people see him feed and may not want to whip the fangs out in front of others. We may want to call that 'Plan B'.