benefit (wealth)

[Faust]

Is wealth 5 enough to have a character own a private jet, a mansion at north bay, a yacht and an apartment/ condo unit at parkside? The mansion is bought through equipment points, but the rest are not.

[Dr Archeville]

Everything else will need to be bought via equipment points.

[angrydurf]

So what does wealth get you?

the description seems to indicate it gives you everything from that lifestyle (in the book it goes into how to buy stuff with it but you don't use that here)

So if you just want a mansion (not an HQ with a super computer and defense systems etc) you still need to buy it with equipment points?

The Limo and or sports car you take to the clubs, or the private helecopter that flies you to board meetings all need to be bought with equipment points?

It seems like wealth doesn't really do anything then.

I always interpreted the equipment feat as stuff you have either bought or stolen or made and the wealth benefit to be your bank account but since you can't use the bank account to buy new stuff it seems kinda worthless if it doesn't at least give you the basics for your lifestyle.

[Dr Archeville]

You can use Wealth to buy stuff, it just won't stay with you from adventure to adventure. 'Permanent' gear is brought with Equipment points.

[angrydurf]

OK that makes more sense

So you can "buy" a jet with wealth but if you want to use it every adventure you'll need to put the PP into equipment for it.

[Lord Fell]

I was told that everyone has certain basics -shelter, transportation, food, and someway to phone people. At its most basic level, Wealth is probably a descriptor of those things.

At reduced wealth, it means a flop-house (or a garbage bag draped over a park bench if things get really tight), a bus pass or a bicycle, a stash of granola bars in a back-pack, and a disposable cell-phone that's two generations old or a favourite payphone.

Basic wealth means you have a decent apartment, a car that's not too old or unreliable, you bring home groceries every week and you have a land-line and/or cellphone. Apply variations to taste; nice place - crappier car, etc.

At wealth five, your descriptors should be opulent. Your homes are a two-story penthouse and a mansion in the posh end of town.You probably have access to as many as 4 vehicles, but frequently opt for a limo service. Your chef (or his assistants) by food and prepare meals. Your secretary or answering service screens your calls, and you only talk to people you want or need to.

Mechanics wise, there isn't really any difference in the above examples.

I wonder if wealth could be treated like Hero Points, but only in regards to having access to things? "I need an armoured car for this thread." Wealth 5? No problem. Wealth 0, No wai.

[Dr Archeville]

I was told that everyone has certain basics -shelter, transportation, food, and someway to phone people. At its most basic level, Wealth is probably a descriptor of those things.

Told by whom?

I wonder if wealth could be treated like Hero Points, but only in regards to having access to things? "I need an armoured car for this thread." Wealth 5? No problem. Wealth 0, No wai.

That kinda is how it's done: Wealth 5, you'll have a high Wealth bonus, so you can buy that armored car.

[angrydurf]

6. Freedom City: PbP will be using a very basic version of the Wealth variant. All characters will be considered to have access to a middle-class lifestyle (Wealth +8): a place to live, a car if needed, money for food, clothes, etc. The players will be free to determine the details of where that wealth comes from. Players who wish to have access to a more lavish lifestyle may purchase ranks of the Benefit (Wealth) feat (+4 per Rank), which works out to something like:

Starting Wealth = Middle Class

Benefit 1 (Wealth) = Affluent

Benefit 2-3 (Wealth) = Wealthy

Benefit 4-5 (Wealth) = Rich

Benefit 6+ (Wealth) = Filthy Rich

(*Note: Ranks of profession can also increase your wealth bonus. See page 132 for details.)

The wealth level describes the character's entire lifestyle, not just the amount of cash they have on hand. So a teenage hero who has very little "allowance" but who lives in a mansion, goes to an exclusive school, and drives around in a limo, would, in fact, be Wealthy or Rich.

We will not be requiring players to make wealth rolls. Just assume that your character has access to anything that a "normal" person of your level of wealth could buy through "normal" channels. Players will not be permitted to use their wealth to buy things that are of significance to the game system: equipment, weapons, etc. Use the Equipment feat for that.

I think its taken from the lines I bolded above

It seems to indicate that we have the stuff someone of our wealth level would have. Of course if its gonna need game stats and be equipment it is stated that that needs to be bought as such. So you can have a private jet to vacation in but if you want to use it to chase down or attack a villian in his airship armmada it needs to be equipment. Of course with wealth you can get a jet short term for that but if you want ot always hav access you'll need the equipment feat.

[Lord Fell]

My first character build here was The Rattler (NPC PL6). Initially, I had used Equipment to buy a very basic car and a cell phone. Sandman did the initial review of the character, and told me I didn't really need to spend points on 'the basics.'

[Dr Archeville]

Ah, that's something the prior Admin put in. I.e., it was in place before I came on.

I'll put it this way: the book sez the GM can assign 'unpaid' Equipment to PCs (ex.: a teams HQ, which none of the PCs pay Equipment points for). The GM can take these away at any time, since they're not really "yours."

[N/A]

This really, really needs to be clearly defined in the House Rules already. At the very least, if the current entry in the House Rules is wrong, it needs to just be removed. This is hardly the first time this "but the rules say that / those are old house rules" exchange has taken place, and it won't be the last.

What Wealth rules are we using, if any? For those of us with Benefit (Wealth), exactly what "Benefit" do we get out of it? What is the "baseline" that a normal Player Character gets if they don't invest any power points in Wealth? These questions need to be answered.

I was also under the impression that the base +8 Wealth level provided you with a residence, living expenses, transportation, and basic communication. The book seems to at least imply that.

You really want people to pay Equipment points for "the limo that takes them to the country club?" Or the sedan they commute to work with? That seems excessive.

[angrydurf]

It might be best just to drop the wealth optional rule and convert wealth into equipment for folks. The wealth option in the book is pretty open ended for a wealthy character to just buy any and all equipment he might want that isn't restricted. It wouldn't take long to do so with a +25-35 check bonus.

Just having it as a descriptor without cost seems fine as long as you don't get "but I'm filthy rich" freebies that effect the game.

On equipment though it seems that there is some stuff that should be worth less than a full EP like a flashlight or cell phone etc. maybe a list of common Items that you can pick 5 or ten of them for a single EP? This of course if we don't let your lifstyle as described by your background or benefits give you basics like that.

[Dr Archeville]

How's it done in Champions, which has separate things for Wealth and for Equipment?

[N/A]

I think that, if we don't wind up using the optional Wealth system from the Equipment chapter, that being "Wealthy" should just be a 1PP Benefit, like all the others. If all it affects is background lifestyle, then it's not worth any more.

[Faust]

What's going to happen then?

Does that mean characters should spend EP's on their own homes and vehicles that their wealth level could generally have? Also for celphones and the like?

For my character, I was planning her to buy a loft at Parkside, just to say that she's got one there. It'll be used as a venue for meeting ppl or what, but not as a base of operations. the same with a limo/jet and yacht (if wealth 5 is enough for such).

I like the house rule on wealth as it is, but if it's going to be changed, we need to make the necessary adjustments.

[Dr Archeville]

What's going to happen then?

I'm waiting for someone to answer my question.

How's it done in Champions, which has separate things for Wealth and for Equipment?

[Faust]

if I may ask, what's wrong with the current wealth rule?

[angrydurf]

I'm waiting for someone to answer my question.

If memory serves the equipment catagory for Champions is more like Devices from M&M than equipment but its been awhile and I've lost all my champ books now.

[Dr Archeville]

if I may ask, what's wrong with the current wealth rule?

The situation brought up by this very thread: how much should you get for free just by having ranks in Wealth, especially when the existing rules say you can't buy anything which would require the equipment feat (which would include normal cars and houses).

[N/A]

How's it done in Champions, which has separate things for Wealth and for Equipment?

...Why do we care?

[Dr Archeville]

...Why do we care?

Because, as I said, they have a similar set up, where you have one 'feat' for Wealth and one 'feat' for Equipment like bases and vehicles. (And because M&M pretty clearly owes a lot to that system.)

[angrydurf]

I will say that most editions of champions (especially after the full intergration with HERO) are pretty convoluted and have multiple ways of doing the same effect some of them at sharp discount.

The wealth system in the book doesn't (that I can see) say it can't cover equipment, thats been added when they did the odd version for the house rule. In fact it is desighned to allow you to buy Equipment without spending power points on it. One assumes this is balanced buy the GM saying no to some stuff and some stuff just not being available for purchase.

This is really a table top rule where it doesn't matter much if one character can buy a ton of stuff with wealth. the GM can keep an eye on the situation and say no when it woudl damage the plot. thats much harder to do in a game of this size with already taxed refs. Also the book system of wealth is ablative so that buying stuff will temporarily lower your wealth rating but that is tied into the wealth check which is not used but given as an auto success for numbers under your check. The wealth check and shopping time requires more GM monitoring that is really feasible in a game of this format.

I think thats why the limitations that were placed on wealth under tho old GM were put there the idea being he woudl be able to say no that woudl need to be equpment if you want a to purchase the x-mens blackbird but allow people with fabulous fortunes to have a cell phone and nice car to drive to club and impress their friends.

But I think the original line of what can be purchased and what requires the eqipment feat was lost when they gave up the reins.

It seems like the idea the current powers that be have of Wealth is more as an equivalent of Benefit: Status (I'm rich b**ch). While the actual Stuff of wealth is covered with equipment.

The only real issue I personally have with that is that equipment costs for really basic Items are way over costed (scuba gear, a laptop, a PDA, a desktop, a cellphone, and a flashlight all worth the same amount) But thats an issue with Equipment not wealth specifically.

[Sacerdos]

In Champions, there are two modes of play: superheroic and heroic.

In heroic play, equipment is bought with money as is done in games like GURPS, with permanent wealth costing character creation points.

In superheroic play, all equipment, mundane or otherwise, is bought using character creation points. All of it, from wristwatches to death rays, is the equivalent of an M&M Device. Wealth in this case is also bought exactly like in heroic play, but it has very little in-game value beyond the ability to call oneself a billionaire and claim to have non-game-impacting goodies like a pleasure palace in Istanbul.

[N/A]

I seriously question how much "game impact" a cell phone or commuter car has in a campaign that takes place 1) in the modern world and 2) in a world full of super-powered characters (player and non-player alike).

[Sacerdos]

As far as Champions is concerned, if it lets you do much of anything (e.g. talk to someone at a distance), it costs points in a superheroic game. This is true even if the object in question is fairly ubiquitous technology.

Most GMs I've known have hand-waved cell phones, watches, etc. and allowed Wealth to be fairly useful. But that's table-top, which is a slightly different animal than PbP.