benefit (wealth)

[angrydurf]

Well being bored and a rules nut I was workingo n a few variations on wealth that might work in this format but I relized that simpler really is better so I willonly write up the simple stuff ATM.

One: Drop the wealth benefit, its a descriptor of your lifestyle with no in game value if you want stuff by the equipment feat if you want access to the upper echolons of society buy status or contacts.

Pros: simple and not even really a house rule just strait book. Cons: Any character with wealth would have to be refunded the points and then respend them so alot of work approving the re-works (not sure how common wealth is but woudl be the main downside)

Two: Better define the current system. Wealth option as explained in the house rules basicaly. What can be bought/owned is anything not restricted, restricted Items would be any Item that requires licensing to own/carry. These Items are mundane versions of said Items not supped up super versions with oil slicks etc and must be used in legal ways (no flying the private jet/heliocopter without a registered flight plan or in protected airspace). This allows rich characters to have nice appartments/mansions (without supercomputers or special equipment) or fancy cars (but not the batmobile) or even a private jet (that they can fly from an airport to an airport but not use to airdrop into the city) anything that has enhancements beyond the "normal" needs to be bought in full with Equiment points (no upgrading your mansion or penthouse into the batcave/baxter building pay for the full deal).

Pros: No rewrites needed as characters have been built under the basic system already this just clarifyies what you can have (some small rewrites for people who bought cell phones and flashlights with eps) Cons: Some may assume that they can get stuff that they cant (armored limo, lock release gun) so Refs have to keep an eye on that.

I think the second is a bit better but there seemed to be some hesitancy to give stuff to the wealthy characters for "free".

[Dr Archeville]

My main issue with the Wealth rules as laid out in the book is that, if used to purchase (even if only temporarily) Equipment, any PC with the base level of Wealth (+8) can Take 20 and buy a Stately Manor, Underground Lair, or Urban Fortress, or private jet; they can Take 10 and buy a sports car or limo or bus or yacht. Licensing and zoning issues (i.e. the GM saying 'no') aside, this just seems wrong to me.

Option #1 is attractive (and I like the idea of using "I'm rich" as a descriptor for some feats)... but then we can get into issues of needing to use equipment points to have a cell phone or car to get to/from day job or a basic house, as well as chgaracter/player arguments over who's the richer one.

I like Option #2 best, though it means more work. We'd need to figure out just what the various ranks of Wealth can get you 'for free'.

My initial thought is this: since if your current wealth bonus is > the purchase DC (which is 10 + point cost), you can buy it automatically, then if an item's cost (in points) is 10 or more points less than your Wealth bonus, you can get it automatically/fore free. Which means an Affluent Mad Scientist (total Wealth +16) can buy anything costing 6 points or less for free... which wouldn't be enough for a decent gun, or a compact car. And a can of pepper spray (15 points) is right out.

Hurm....

[angrydurf]

Really guns and pepper spray should be equipment only. They require permiting etc and for the purposes of the game have a greater value than thier cash value would indicate.

the EP cost of Items is (rightfully) more in line with thier use than thier cash value. I think if your gonna use wealth to get stuff it should be divorced from EP cost entirely and moved to an actual cash system of course that rachets up the complexity again.

[MBCE]

Wealth system, hm....

Tough nut to crack.

AS I see it, Wealth in MM is a lifestyle. It shows how easily a character can get things. These items, purchased should only last for the scene. Limiting items to real world accessibility makes sense as well.

Your wealthy character wants a pistol? No problems. Buying one is easy. Buying a miliatry assualt rifle might be a little more difficult to do.

I have a question though for those players with wealth.

How do you want to see the wealth system used? Give us an idea of what you'd like to see with the rules and we can come to a compromise.

[angrydurf]

My main concern is that it is balanced against the other benefits/feats like status or equipment. Equipment "just for the scene" can be better done witht he array of alternate powers as described under the utility belt section of equipment or even as a HP expenditure for an aditional alternate power (equipment in this case).

It could work to get Equipment for one mission/adventure/caper I guess but it also doesn't really make sense that your vast wealth allows you to "lease" Items but not buy them permanently. Though for balance being able to just buy permanent equipment is too powerfull.

Honestly I think I'd rather it be a form of status and if you want stuff you buy that stuff as equipment with equipment points. I think though that that would also require a look at EP costs of some items (I'm looking at you flashlight) that are really not worth even 1 EP.

Maybe a list of "starter gear" that anyone without the struggling complication or impoverished drawback has access to. If we want to say that everyone starts with a certain available "stuff"

[Faust]

Well, my idea is to use benefit wealth mainly in the beginning of the character's career..to say what he has attained when he materializes.

Whether he has a home or not in the beginning, or a car or a bike.

Ofcourse refs will have control on allowing such things to be aquired.

I mean it'd be unreasonable for a character to buy lots here and there in every adventure or buy cars. but if it's sound and fits his story, then why not? a character can't just go to a store or shop all the time. and even if they can buy buildings, they'd have to go through sellers, other potential buyers and all that.

The benefit of spending eps for equipment would be the instant aquisition of such items.. while for wealth characters would need a good excuse.

but mostly it would be for flavor text

the only drawback would be that there would be extra work to see that it's not abused/ to ref if aquiring items is reasonable.

[N/A]

As one of the players whose character has a significant number of power points invested in Benefit (Wealth), I care less what we choose and more that it just gets clearly defined, and that it happens as soon as possible.

I see a few options:

1) Benefit (Wealth) is no longer a ranked feat. It functions similarly to Benefit (Security Clearance) or Benefit (Status). Maybe it gives a circumstance bonus (+2? +4? +5?) on appropriate Interaction checks, at the GM's discretion. Aside from that, it provides flavor and minor utility - you live in a mansion or penthouse, ride in a limo or posh towncar, eat at fancy restaurants, wear designer clothes, etc. Mostly background stuff, on par with a 1PP Benefit/Feature.

If we choose this option, we let anyone who has invested more than 1PP in Benefit (Wealth) re-allocate those points.

2) We use the Wealth system out of the book, as-is. Characters can use Wealth to make purchases that will last the duration of the encounter, or the adventure, following the guidelines in the book (either the Purchase DC table, or the point cost of a piece of Equipment). The GM can feel free to adjudicate what Wealth can and cannot be used to purchase on a case-by-case basis.

3) We use the Wealth system out of the book, but with a minor tweak, such as:

:arrow: You cannot Take 20.

:arrow: You cannot Take 10 or 20.

[MBCE]

As one of the players whose character has a significant number of power points invested in Benefit (Wealth), I care less what we choose and more that it just gets clearly defined, and that it happens as soon as possible.

I see a few options:

1) Benefit (Wealth) is no longer a ranked feat. It functions similarly to Benefit (Security Clearance) or Benefit (Status). Maybe it gives a circumstance bonus (+2? +4? +5?) on appropriate Interaction checks, at the GM's discretion. Aside from that, it provides flavor and minor utility - you live in a mansion or penthouse, ride in a limo or posh towncar, eat at fancy restaurants, wear designer clothes, etc. Mostly background stuff, on par with a 1PP Benefit/Feature.

If we choose this option, we let anyone who has invested more than 1PP in Benefit (Wealth) re-allocate those points.

2) We use the Wealth system out of the book, as-is. Characters can use Wealth to make purchases that will last the duration of the encounter, or the adventure, following the guidelines in the book (either the Purchase DC table, or the point cost of a piece of Equipment). The GM can feel free to adjudicate what Wealth can and cannot be used to purchase on a case-by-case basis.

3) We use the Wealth system out of the book, but with a minor tweak, such as:

:arrow: You cannot Take 20.

:arrow: You cannot Take 10 or 20.

These are all good options. But as you said, you are a character that spent points here. Which method do you prefer?

[angrydurf]

Personally I think the wealth option really only works in tabeltop. I was in a LARP for awhile that used a varient wealth rule for VtM and it made resources way to powerful since there wasn't enough GM "NO" going on due to the playerbase being huge.

The character I apped has wealth, I woudl be happiest if it was just a status like benifit maybe a social bonus to certain situations and switch the points to Equipment but He's still awaiting approval so changes are easy.

I would keep the wealth at 5 even if it was one of the other systems Shaen suggested but it woudl be for character reasons only and woudl kinda feel like a waste of points honestly.

[Geez3r]

Seeing as how I'm invested in the Wealth rules myself, might as well toss in my two cents. For me Wealth is a background thing. At the start of the adventure or whatever, and the GM asks you why you're there, you can answer "I'm filthy stinking rich." Which could either be good or bad depending on the scenario. But that's neither here nor there.

Wealth represents what your character has potential access to, where as Equipment represents what they have on hand right now. Malice has quite a bit of Wealth and is a weapons deveolper, so it's not beyond reason that he's got access to some high tech mumbo jumbo. As it is now, that's simply represented by him having the necesary parts to make a battle suit. Now if I would like to pull out a hither to unmentioned bazooka out of no where, that would be bad.

For the most part, Wealth is a descriptor, and I myself don't see using my Wealth to leverage anything, with one exception. In the Mastermind's Manual, there is a quick little section about rolls to decide the outcome of a trial. One of the things that gives a bonus to this roll is ranks in Wealth. You can bet money that if Malice is ever caught he'll bribe the pants off the jury.

All of that being said, I like Shaen's first idea, but slightly modified. There are 3 tiers of Wealth: Wealthy, Loaded, and Just Silly.

Wealthy: This level of Wealth represents someone who is well off, but still has to pay attention to their finances. Nice house, nice car, don't have to worry about major expenses most of the time, but can't splurge on a yatch. This is the level of minor celebrities, or higher end professionals.

Loaded: You could spend the average person's annual salary weekly and not run out of money. You take extravagent vacations at the drop of a hat, you always get the VIP treatment where ever you go, and you have the top of the line of whatever you want. This is the level of A list celebrities.

Just Silly: You routinely buy things that have no price tag. You can live extravagantly on your interest alone. Your personal Wealth is larger than that of some countries. This is Bill Gates or Bruce Wayne.

[N/A]

There are 3 tiers of Wealth: Wealthy, Loaded, and Just Silly.

Wealthy: This level of Wealth represents someone who is well off, but still has to pay attention to their finances. Nice house, nice car, don't have to worry about major expenses most of the time, but can't splurge on a yatch. This is the level of minor celebrities, or higher end professionals.

Loaded: You could spend the average person's annual salary weekly and not run out of money. You take extravagent vacations at the drop of a hat, you always get the VIP treatment where ever you go, and you have the top of the line of whatever you want. This is the level of A list celebrities.

Just Silly: You routinely buy things that have no price tag. You can live extravagantly on your interest alone. Your personal Wealth is larger than that of some countries. This is Bill Gates or Bruce Wayne.

I could also go for this. Again, with potential circumstance bonuses on Interaction checks.

[angrydurf]

Seeing as how I'm invested in the Wealth rules myself, might as well toss in my two cents. For me Wealth is a background thing. At the start of the adventure or whatever, and the GM asks you why you're there, you can answer "I'm filthy stinking rich." Which could either be good or bad depending on the scenario. But that's neither here nor there.

Wealth represents what your character has potential access to, where as Equipment represents what they have on hand right now. Malice has quite a bit of Wealth and is a weapons deveolper, so it's not beyond reason that he's got access to some high tech mumbo jumbo. As it is now, that's simply represented by him having the necesary parts to make a battle suit. Now if I would like to pull out a hither to unmentioned bazooka out of no where, that would be bad.

For the most part, Wealth is a descriptor, and I myself don't see using my Wealth to leverage anything, with one exception. In the Mastermind's Manual, there is a quick little section about rolls to decide the outcome of a trial. One of the things that gives a bonus to this roll is ranks in Wealth. You can bet money that if Malice is ever caught he'll bribe the pants off the jury.

All of that being said, I like Shaen's first idea, but slightly modified. There are 3 tiers of Wealth: Wealthy, Loaded, and Just Silly.

Wealthy: This level of Wealth represents someone who is well off, but still has to pay attention to their finances. Nice house, nice car, don't have to worry about major expenses most of the time, but can't splurge on a yatch. This is the level of minor celebrities, or higher end professionals.

Loaded: You could spend the average person's annual salary weekly and not run out of money. You take extravagent vacations at the drop of a hat, you always get the VIP treatment where ever you go, and you have the top of the line of whatever you want. This is the level of A list celebrities.

Just Silly: You routinely buy things that have no price tag. You can live extravagantly on your interest alone. Your personal Wealth is larger than that of some countries. This is Bill Gates or Bruce Wayne.

I like this

[Ecalsneerg]

That's actually a good idea. I'll third that idea

[Avenger Assembled]

Fourth-ed!

[Sacerdos]

Put me down for a fifth. Scotch, preferably.

[MBCE]

Okay, it looks like there is a strong choice for The Wealth feat to give a bonus of some kind to interaction rolls. I can live with that.

1) Benefit (Wealth) is no longer a ranked feat. It functions similarly to Benefit (Security Clearance) or Benefit (Status). Maybe it gives a circumstance bonus (+2? +4? +5?) on appropriate Interaction checks, at the GM's discretion. Aside from that, it provides flavor and minor utility - you live in a mansion or penthouse, ride in a limo or posh towncar, eat at fancy restaurants, wear designer clothes, etc. Mostly background stuff, on par with a 1PP Benefit/Feature.

People seem also to like the three levels of Wealth to represent exactly what that wealth will allow to buy.

There are 3 tiers of Wealth: Wealthy, Loaded, and Just Silly.

Wealthy: This level of Wealth represents someone who is well off, but still has to pay attention to their finances. Nice house, nice car, don't have to worry about major expenses most of the time, but can't splurge on a yatch. This is the level of minor celebrities, or higher end professionals.

Loaded: You could spend the average person's annual salary weekly and not run out of money. You take extravagent vacations at the drop of a hat, you always get the VIP treatment where ever you go, and you have the top of the line of whatever you want. This is the level of A list celebrities.

Just Silly: You routinely buy things that have no price tag. You can live extravagantly on your interest alone. Your personal Wealth is larger than that of some countries. This is Bill Gates or Bruce Wayne.

What I would like is to keep Wealth ranked. It easily allows for the three levels of wealth as listed above, and it keeps the sheets the same without needing adjustments.

So the first thing we need to propose is what bonus does each catergory of wealth gives you to interaction rolls. I don't want it to get too crazy so would like the bonus to be low. I think the following would work for the ranks. I would like to do a rank equals a +1 bonus on interaction checks but this seems pretty low. Giving a flat bonus due to the area of wealth (Wealthy, Loaded, Silly) would mean most people would simply take the lowest rank in that area which defeats variety in characters. Any suggests on the bonus the level of wealth should give?

Wealthy: Wealth ranked 1-2

Loaded: Wealth ranked 3-5

Just Silly: Wealth ranked 6 and above

[Geez3r]

How about +1, +3, and +5? I feel +1 per level is too little, +2 is too much, and a flat bonus has it's own problems.

[Dr Archeville]

I think they're talking three ranks total, MBCE. So one rank of Wealth 1 is Wealthy, Wealth 2 is Loaded, Wealth 3 is Just Silly. (Yes, it means some characters may need to be edited, but it's not like we've never done that before )

Could do the bonus like Attractive: each ranks gives a +4 bonus to two skills, but only in cases where wealth would help. Diplomacy (i.e., bribery) should be one.

Or, a +2/rank to Diplomacy/bribery and a +1/rank to the other Interaction skills (Bluff and Intimidate).

[MBCE]

I think they're talking three ranks total, MBCE. So one rank of Wealth 1 is Wealthy, Wealth 2 is Loaded, Wealth 3 is Just Silly. (Yes, it means some characters may need to be edited, but it's not like we've never done that before )

I know that's what most are thinking about, but having one pp change the level of welath so easily just doesn't sit well with me. 3pps to be Silly rich is just too cheap. Ranking it out would keep people from buying wealth so quickly. Of course, if we charge more pps for each level that works as well. 1pp for Wealthy, 3pps for Loaded, 6pps for Silly rich, works for me.

Could do the bonus like Attractive: each ranks gives a +4 bonus to two skills, but only in cases where wealth would help. Diplomacy (i.e., bribery) should be one.

Or, a +2/rank to Diplomacy/bribery and a +1/rank to the other Interaction skills (Bluff and Intimidate).

[angrydurf]

I know that's what most are thinking about, but having one pp change the level of welath so easily just doesn't sit well with me. 3pps to be Silly rich is just too cheap. Ranking it out would keep people from buying wealth so quickly. Of course, if we charge more pps for each level that works as well. 1pp for Wealthy, 3pps for Loaded, 6pps for Silly rich, works for me.

Well I think its more a matter of matching the benefit to the cost. If it doesn't actually get us "stuff" which I think is part of the point of the change than just being rich isn't useful mechanicswise. If you look at comics wealth is more like a descriptor than an actual benefit, The wayne fortune is the explanation for all the bat gadgets but you can certainly have them without the personal fortune as well just look at the various batclones that are not multi gazzilionares. If all we get for the levels is to say "I'm supa rich" 5-6 pp is steep.

Diplomacy (bribery) and gather information should be the two skills associated with Wealth. I don'T see Bluff or Intimidate having a relation with how much money you can spend....Actually, Intimidate would fit to a degree.

"I ahve more than enough money to find you whereever you go to make your life hell!"

I think the natural skill would be gather info, you get access to more people and can grease the wheels where needed. Diplomacy for bribies makes sense but would that stack with attractive? What about craft? to represent higher quality tools and ease of gathering quality materials.

Also if its structured like attractive to give 2 bonuses at +4 your getting really high bonuses at the high levels of wealth if its ranked as it currently is going to 6+

[Lord Fell]

Attractive gives a +4 per rank roughly half the time (to anyone who would find you attractive). Wealth, as something that would aid interaction would work "most" of the time (there might be folks who resent your wealth, but I'm sure they'd be happier if you shared some of it with them), so that ought to drop it to a +2 per rank.

In addition, Wealth has the more nebulous bonus of being a "I have nice stuff" descriptor, but since it's nebulous, let's not worry about it. Attractive gives a +4 to Diplomacy and Bluff... Wealth gives a +2 to Gather Information and Diplomacy (which is about equivalent with the +4, effective half the time). If we wanted to say that Wealth can also add to Intimidate (if someone can be leveraged economically) or Bluff (if someone will take a bribe), we should probably drop it down to a +1 per Rank (but remember the "nice stuff" descriptor). Diplomacy and Gather Information already add to Contacts and Connected feat, yes?

[Ecalsneerg]

Thing is, Attractive is PL-capped. It's easy to describe someone as attractive, but good at bluffing and diplomacy so they don't have Attractive (i.e. flawed skill ranks). However, going down this road with Wealth, someone good at the interaction skills used for wealth will break caps just because they have money, and that doesn't sit well with me.

And I think 6 pp for silly rich is way too much, unless we actually start doing something with Wealth ranks other than as a very expensive descriptor. 6 pp for a flawed bonus to interaction skills is a lot, for 6 pp I as a player would expect a large benefit from so significant a points investment.

[Dr Archeville]

I'm firmly ion the camp that any skill bonus from Wealth should be treated as actual ranks (and subject to PL caps), just like Attractive.

[Lord Fell]

That causes me a problem, Doc. Pompadour is currently at Diplomacy (4/+12 Attractive) and I intend for him to purchase wealth ASAP, to represent the lifestyle I envision him having. How does that work logistically? "Nope, you're too good looking, you're not allowed to have any money." I bet no one every said that to Scarlet Johannsen.

To be honest, I'd like to improve his Bluff and Diplomacy so that they're more useful to those folks who aren't swayed by his Attractive, but I can't because he's capped. Perhaps situational bonuses should only count for half-caps? In my example, I'd consider my current rank as +8 instead of +12.

[Dr Archeville]

That causes me a problem, Doc. Pompadour is currently at Diplomacy (4/+12 Attractive) and I intend for him to purchase wealth ASAP, to represent the lifestyle I envision him having. How does that work logistically? "Nope, you're too good looking, you're not allowed to have any money." I bet no one every said that to Scarlet Johannsen.

It works exactly as logistically as Attractive.

To be honest, I'd like to improve his Bluff and Diplomacy so that they're more useful to those folks who aren't swayed by his Attractive, but I can't because he's capped. Perhaps situational bonuses should only count for half-caps? In my example, I'd consider my current rank as +8 instead of +12.

I'm disinclined to change that. If you want his appearance to not be that great a factor, just drop Attractive and buy more ranks in the skills.