benefit (wealth)

[angrydurf]

I think keeping it to the PL caps makes as much sense as ony other cap. You won't be stopped in buying wealth you'll just have to shuffle points so your at not over cap. You can have 7 ranks of diplomacy plus your attractive and wealth bonus an sit at the PL10 cap. if you have more than that in diplomacy you can switch those to another skill or even move the PP to get a feat, maybe pick up skill mastery for your interaction skills, or whatever else could usea boost.

I always assumed that any interaction skill bonus would be affected by the PL caps almost nothing lets you break caps.

[N/A]

In hindsight, I think we're making this more complicated than it needs to be. I think we should just adopt that 3-point scale, and give it no direct mechanical benefit. Then it'll be on par with Benefit (Fame), Benefit (Security Clearance), Benefit (Status), and most Feature powers. It'll be a background/fluff thing, and how much effect it has on each adventure will be at the GM's discretion. If the GM wants to give a small +2 circumstance bonus to an Interaction check where bribery is a factor, he can. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to.

I think the 1/3/6PP scale is ludicrously overcharging for anything short of the actual Wealth system in the book.

[Lord Fell]

It also occurred to me that Wealth could be a descriptor of other feats.

Why are you (famous, connected, have so many contacts, have so much equipment)? I'm loaded like Keifer Sutherland on Headbutt Night. I got green like a produce farmer. I don't keep my cold hard cash in the freezer, I have to rent a warehouse in the arctic.

Alternatively, just treat it like the Connected feat, only the Feat is strictly for getting equipment. Wealthy, Rich, and Just Silly would reflect the characters lifestyle. Each level would also work like a Hero Point to acquire or gain access to a piece of equipment or goods on the fly, limited to the Thread. Eg. The Supervillain is getting away because he nullified your Flight. You march into the Harley Dealership, with your Platinum Card at the ready.

...as for my character, I just built him to concept while under caps. He's supposed to be superhumanly hot, and Attractive 1 isn't sufficient for that concept.

[Dr Archeville]

...as for my character, I just built him to concept while under caps. He's supposed to be superhumanly hot, and Attractive 1 isn't sufficient for that concept.

That depends. Divine is stupefyingly hot, but she doesn't have any ranks in Attractive, just maxed Charisma and maxed Bluff & Diplomacy.

[Sacerdos]

I think we should just adopt that 3-point scale, and give it no direct mechanical benefit.

Amen.

[Ecalsneerg]

That depends. Divine is stupefyingly hot, but she doesn't have any ranks in Attractive, just maxed Charisma and maxed Bluff & Diplomacy.

The common justification is that she's so hot, your sexuality is not in the question. At all.

[N/A]

The common justification is that she's so hot, your sexuality is not in the question. At all.

Even The Girls Want Her.

Agreed. Attractive is Bluff & Diplomacy with the Limited flaw. Raw Charisma bonus includes all that and more, so it's perfectly acceptable that part of high Charisma can be physical attractiveness.

[angrydurf]

Sooo why not just drop the wealth benefit entirely. If you want to be wealthy you write it into your back ground and it doesn't really get you anything beyond whats on your sheet? I mean is raw money really useful in this genre? Stuff is covered by equipment, access to snooty parties and events fall to appropriate status/contacts/connected. It kinda feels like we're trying to put a price ont he right for one player to say to another "I'm richer than you." Which really doesn't have much use In Game. the only thing I've seen so far is the option for villains to use it to subvert the legal system but Benefit: mobties, or benefit: blackmailed judge(or DA or officials) seem like they could cover that even better.

[N/A]

I can think of 100 scenarios where a character having money to throw around might have some small impact on the story, even if it's mainly flavor/fluff. But that's enough to put Benefit (Wealth) on par with a lot of other 1PP traits in M&M.

[angrydurf]

From what I have seen the desire is to not allow Wealth to buy Equipment so it can't get you stuff with any real In-Game value (plot value like a painting or ancient artifact sure) and it seems any benefit from living in High Society is better covered by a 1 point status effect, I suppose a 1 point wealth benefit just to represent that kind of status effect is just as good though.

So Wealth is a one point benefit that gives you the right to claim whatever kind of fortune your background and other stats (equipment, skills, etc) warrant. You can get into the good parties and get invites to the charity auctions and fashion shows. No real need for multiple ranks though. Can't buy Equipment stuff but can buy point neutral Items as story requires (stuff that give no mechanical bonus isn't covered by Equipment, like Art, Antiques, etc.)

Thoughts?

[Lord Fell]

I definitely favour the idea of going to a 3 Tier Wealth system (or I guess it would still be 5, if we count "Dead Broke" as a level, where your character has limited access to shelter, transportation, or sometimes both, also normal "middle class" wealth).

I also really like the idea of your Wealth level functioning like a pool of hero points, except limited to things that could be influenced by Wealth. The bouncer tells you to take a hike, you blow a WP and re-roll your diplomacy. Or for acquiring something on the spur of a moment; I want the party to be on a yacht so I blow a WP to make it happen. Certain WP expenditures would be dependent on how many Wealth levels you have (or require more points to pull off). Eg. If you want to pull a Bruce Wayne, and buy a hotel on the spot, you need Silly wealth, or you have to burn all 3 WP. If you've already rented a 80' Yacht, and bought a $55,000 engagement ring this thread, you don't have the cash on hand to buy a hotel. Although, you could still buy a couple of airplane tickets or a fairly standard new car.

[angrydurf]

I see the desire to be able to "buy" stuff with wealth but when it only lasts for a scene it kinda doesn't make sense. Like you can rent a yacht or jumbo jet to have a party on but can't buy a subcompact car permanently?

The temporary stuff element can actually be simulated really well with Equipment points if you can apply the Variable structure to some of your points. Basicaly if you put 1-3 PP into the equipment feat and had those as variable you could reorganize per scene what hey were representing. Which is to say this is stuff you cna get ahold of at one time, a plane, a yacht etc but not both. it fits to the equipment rules and standards and allows you to represent you "fleet of sports cars" as a thing that you only can drive one at a time.

Wealth as a social modifier for one PP allows for the GM or whoever is running a given thread to give a circmstance bonus to a given roll based on that. If you have the 1 pt wealth benefit you get a +2 or +3 to get into the club due to that.

Temp purchases with wealth just kinda rub me the wrong way personally. I would much rather see the equipment feat used to represent possesions and wealth to be a descriptor or 1pp benefit that gives RP bonuses in appropriate situations and circumstance bonuses as warrented.

[Dr Archeville]

MarkK? Sandman? Either of you have anything to add?

[Lord Fell]

What I'm describing wouldn't necessarily be a temporary purchase. For example, when Bruce Wayne is grandstanding, and buys that Hotel in Batman: Begins, he's doing a Wealth Stunt... but the hotel is a permanent acquisition. It doesn't affect his wealth level (Silly), it just affects his cash-flow for the scene.

If Doctor Otaku nullifies a heroes Flight, and is getting away, running into a motorcycle shop and buying a crotch-rocket with your platinum card is also a wealth stunt... again, you bought it, you can keep it... but if you have levels of wealth you already have as many vehicles at home as you want, does one more Kawasaki really change your characters lifestyle much? This is how I envision levels of wealth operating like Hero Points.

I was also thinking that a bit more definition on the wealth levels would be useful...

:arrow: Wealthy -should mean your character has assets in the "few" million dollars, and can have cash or credit instantly available up to about half a million dollars.

:arrow: Rich -should mean your character has assets in excess of 20 million, and can have cash or credit instantly available up to a few million dollars.

:arrow: Just Silly -should mean your character has assets over 100 million dollars, possibly over a billion. The character should be able to purchase large properties (office towers, shopping malls), small corporations, and commercial vehicles (jets, yachts, those funky 3 story tall dump trucks they use for strip mining), out of discretionary funds.

[Ecalsneerg]

Yeah, but how does that affect the poor schmuck who paid 2 pp so he could have a 9 ep motorcycle as Equipment?

[Lord Fell]

hmmm....

Well, if the assumption that a character with no particular wealth can have a home (of some description), transportation (of some description) and the other basic necessities, then perhaps that poor shmuck should get a rebate, provided that the motorcycle is their regular vehicle.

If you want a "super hero cycle" that roars around the city, and isn't traceable to your Secret ID, and is the standard way in which your hero gets around, then that's ep well spent.

[Kavos]

Personally I don't mind the 3 level's of wealth suggested, and even the Bribe/intimidate/bluff bonus. (Just because your night job your all hero doesn't mean your alter-ego has to be, I mean the more opposite a hero your alter-ego is the less likely people will realize you are the hero.)

And personally for me I've always sort of looked at Wealth verses EP from the standpoint of what does the hero use it for, and who uses it? the Hero or the Alter-ego? If it's something they always use to go on adventures than it should be an EP, but if its something that the AE uses than it should be a benefit from wealth.

Take Batman for example, Most character sheet's of him I've seen he's usually stated up to have the Bat-cave but not the mansion, the Bat-car but not the limo. In my opinion the reason is because were playing a superhero game not a game of real life. So in my opinion if the hero uses it to save the world it's an EP, if your AE uses it with everyday life, it's apart of the wealth benefit.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[angrydurf]

The assumption of "basic needs" is hinged on the idea that that stufff isn't used in hero/villian work. Either due to its being linked to your normal Identity or because its not registered as anything special and thus must obey normal laws. Sure you could buy a moterscylce but if you want to ride it in pursuit it has to be purchased with equipment.

Honestly I think anyone with wealth can easily represent that wealth with a 1 point benefit for the social end and an array or Variable container (as the GMs allow) for the remaining points to hold all the stuff you would own/buy.

If the ability to buy things In-Game with wealth is really important the Books optional rule should be used in full. That just requires alot of GM oversight to manage.

Going to the Genre for reference though I feel a 1-2 (maybe 3 for extreme cases) scale that is really just a status effect is the way to go. That covers rich and silly rich and what you get is the equvalent of some status and some fame and the ability to write in that you show up to freedom hall in a limo.

[Dr Archeville]

Okay, here's what I be thinkin':

Drawback 1 (Impoverished)

You have the clothes on your back and whatever's in your pockets, and that's it.

Comic Book Example: Man Thing

Complication (Struggling)

You can usually get all your monthly bills paid, if you don't have to pay to have something repaired or replaced... but most months, you do have to pay for something to be repaired or replaced.

You either rent an apartment by yourself, or you live in a small house that either has one or two roommates, or is in either a bad neighborhood (like the Fens) or a remote rural site.

If you own a car, it's a Rolls Can'ardly (rolls down one hill, can 'ardly get up the next); most likely you walk, bike, or take public transportation.

Comic Book Example: Peter Parker (most versions)

Standard Wealth

Middle class, salaried employment (9-to-5 job).

You're in either an apartment or a small (1 or 2-BR) house in an average part of town, or a medium (3-BR w/ garage) house in a bad part of town or a remote rural area.

You have an economy or mid-size sedan, or something comparable.

Comic Book Example: ???

Benefit 1 (Wealth 1/Wealthy)

Professional employment (skilled lawyer or doctor), owner of a small business, or you draw a regular stipend from some inheritance. Upper middle class or lower upper class. (Complications can be used to reflect any responsibilities your job entails.)

You're either in an apartment or small (1 or 2 BR) house in an upscale neighborhood, a medium (3-BR w/ garage) house in an average neighborhood, or a large (4-BR w/ 2-car garage) house in a remote rural location (since homes like that don't show up in bad neighborhoods).

You can have any sort of car short of a high-end sports coupe; you may also have your own prop plane.

Comic Book Example: Captain America, Matthew Murdock, Foggy Nelson

Benefit 2 (Wealth 2/Rich)

You are a millionaire, and may own a small corporation (depending on complications). Solid upper class.

You live in either a medium (3-BR w/ garage) house in an upscale neighborhood, or a large (4-BR w/ 2-car garage) house in an average neighborhood, or a mansion (5 or 6 BR, 3-car garage) in a remote rural location.

You can have almost anything shy of a military-grade vehicle.

Comic Book Example: ???

Benefit 3 (Wealth 3/Filthy Rich)

You're a billionaire, with resources comparable to multi-national corporations or government/military branches of major countries.

You can have any sort of (standard, non-tricked out) house you want, or almost any sort of vehicle.

Comic Book Example: Gomez Addams, C. Montgomery Burns, Lex Luthor, Tony Stark

Each rank in the Wealth feat gives you a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks which involve bribery. Having the drawback imposes a -1 penalty on those checks. The Struggling complication means you may automatically fail certain Diplomacy or Gather Information checks at he Ref's option (ex: The bouncer you're trying to talk to simply will not talk unless given an adequate bribe, which you may not be able to afford). Like Attractive, this bonus cannot increase your total effective skill rank higher than the campaign’s power level limit.

The Wealth Benefit does not carry any free status, just the money. (Wealth but no Status = eccentric wealthy recluse whom no one has heard of.)

[angrydurf]

Looks good to me. Couple questions though.

The house/vehicle if we want a suped up version do we buy the whole HQ/vehicle or just the upgrades?

What counts as standard for the Filthy rich rank house(or the others for that matter)? Gym, pool, garage, hanger? what kind of security?

On the wealth bonus on diplomacy/gather info can it overcap without benefit or do we need to limit our base on these to keep to caps in that specific situation?

Is there any other "base" equipment we can assume acces to? like a cell phone? flashlight? Or are those purely from equipment regardless of wealth level?

I think this pretty well sets up the feeling of wealth without too many complexities added. I give it a thumbs up.

[Sandman XI]

Looks good to me

[Lord Fell]

So, a character with Charisma 12, Attractive 1, Wealth 1, and 1 rank of Diplomacy would list the skill...

Diplomacy 1 (+2/+6/+8 Attractive/Wealthy) ?

I tend to agree that this looks good... although Angrydurf's query re: cell phones, flash lights, etc, is valid.

[Dr Archeville]

Looks good to me. Couple questions though.

The house/vehicle if we want a suped up version do we buy the whole HQ/vehicle or just the upgrades?

The whole thing. Makes it easier to track.

What counts as standard for the Filthy rich rank house(or the others for that matter)? Gym, pool, garage, hanger? what kind of security?

Garage (as mentioned), gym or pool would be okay. I'm torn on security, since that is something that has direct game value (since it sets the DC for Disable Device checks to break in).

On the wealth bonus on diplomacy/gather info can it overcap without benefit or do we need to limit our base on these to keep to caps in that specific situation?

It works just like Attractive, like I said.

Is there any other "base" equipment we can assume acces to? like a cell phone? flashlight? Or are those purely from equipment regardless of wealth level?

General equipment (computer, cell phone, camera, basic flashlight), no problem, unless you're Struggling.

So, a character with Charisma 12, Attractive 1, Wealth 1, and 1 rank of Diplomacy would list the skill...

Diplomacy 1 (+2/+6/+8 Attractive/Wealthy) ?

I'd go with

Diplomacy 1 (+2, +6 w/ Attractive; +2 more w/ Wealth)

[Lord Fell]

One last thing on my end...

Having paid for a few pieces of Eq, and even noted in my News where it came from, it makes sense to me that I'd generally have it with me (cell phone, multitool, flashlight). Should characters note on their sheets if they have normal gear that they often carry?

[Dr Archeville]

One last thing on my end...

Having paid for a few pieces of Eq, and even noted in my News where it came from, it makes sense to me that I'd generally have it with me (cell phone, multitool, flashlight). Should characters note on their sheets if they have normal gear that they often carry?

I would say yes.