Motivation!

[Moira Morley]

Using Int mod for initiative is sorta silly (I'm looking at you Speed of Thought). So, could I use Charisma for initiative? The descriptor would be Motivation.

"I move faster than you!"

"Why?"

"Because I'm more motivated!"

[Dr Archeville]

Using Int mod for initiative is sorta silly (I'm looking at you Speed of Thought).

How is "my body moves as fast as my mind!" silly?

[quotemyname]

How is "my body moves as fast as my mind!" silly?

As per my discussion with Moira in chat about why I don't believe in Speed of Thought (though not necessarily Motivation! either to be fair)

Because even if you can think fast enough to react to something, there is still only so fast that your muscles can go. To give reason to why Dexterity is used: Cockroaches respond to someone about to stop on them faster than their brains can actually process the information.

[Dr Archeville]

Because even if you can think fast enough to react to something, there is still only so fast that your muscles can go.

And people with Speed of Thought have bypassed that limitation.

[quotemyname]

So then you have no objections to Motivation? Because by you're reasoning, people with a high charisma may be able to use their force of will to overcome the limitations of their muscles as well.

[Dr Archeville]

Didn't say I have no objection. Like anything else, it'd have to be noodled over by the Refs.

[Sacerdos]

So then you have no objections to Motivation? Because by you're reasoning, people with a high charisma may be able to use their force of will to overcome the limitations of their muscles as well.

However, force of will comes from wisdom. Charisma is force of personality, from whence comes leadership. Therefore, one use of a high charisma would be to spur other people to overcome their limitations; hence Inspire, Leadership, etc.

[quotemyname]

Noted. However this new Idea could be something else that is very useful. Like the 4e D&D Warlord ability that grants a Cha Mod bonus to allied combatants. Now THAT would be an interesting feat!

[Sacerdos]

Agreed. Properly extra/flaw'ed Luck Control and Probability Control could also be used to simulate a super-inspiring person.

[quotemyname]

That's very true. I may look into that for Captain Knievel

[Avenger Assembled]

I am, as the young man says, not so sure about this.

[quotemyname]

For any reason in particular?

[Lord Fell]

Thought...

The more feats there are that allow you to substitute Attribute X for your (normally attribute Y) roll, the more specialized characters become. To the extreme example... we have...

Mind over Matter -> Use your Int for your Str rolls.

Cerebral Precision -> Use your Int for your Dex rolls.

Prescient Perseverance -> Use your Int for your Con rolls.

Logic Prevails -> Use your Int for your Wis rolls.

Appeal to Reason -> Use your Int for your Cha rolls.

What does the character sheet look like?

Str 2 (-4) Dex 2 (-4) Con 2 (-4) Int 38 (+14) Wis 2 (-4) Cha 2 (-4)

...I already see a lot of depressingly homogenous sheets with 10s across the board, except the one or two stats that are relevant to the characters skills, which are maxed out... honestly, how do you GET a Dex of 30 without getting enough exercise to raise your Str or Con???

[Avenger Assembled]

Your force of personality might help your _friends_ move faster. (I've actually seen that modeled: a container with Affects Others Improved Initiative) But it doesn't make genre-sense for it to make you move faster, not the way Intelligence does. The attributes need to have some individual value.

[quotemyname]

Honestly, I agree with that. I was never really a fan of the idea in the first place. But I do like the idea of your charisma helping others, so I am going to look into that. :)

[Moira Morley]

How does "I'm smart enough to go first" make any less sense than "I'm motivated to go first"?

[Vith]

Thought...

The more feats there are that allow you to substitute Attribute X for your (normally attribute Y) roll, the more specialized characters become. To the extreme example... we have...

Mind over Matter -> Use your Int for your Str rolls.

Cerebral Precision -> Use your Int for your Dex rolls.

Prescient Perseverance -> Use your Int for your Con rolls.

Logic Prevails -> Use your Int for your Wis rolls.

Appeal to Reason -> Use your Int for your Cha rolls.

What does the character sheet look like?

Str 2 (-4) Dex 2 (-4) Con 2 (-4) Int 38 (+14) Wis 2 (-4) Cha 2 (-4)

...I already see a lot of depressingly homogenous sheets with 10s across the board, except the one or two stats that are relevant to the characters skills, which are maxed out... honestly, how do you GET a Dex of 30 without getting enough exercise to raise your Str or Con???

That's a good point fell but.. that's why the GM's are there. Technically you could create that autistic invalid that uses all of his brains to make up for pretty much everything else. But a good GM should take one look at that build and either slap it down right there.

Unfortunately since we're not a small group for a f2f game and the staff are busy enough as-is so... shrug.

And Cha is a rather hodgepodge stat as-is. For init I'd see it as less of 'I'm more motivated!' and more of 'I'm so strong-willed that I can push my body past what it should be able to do.'

[angrydurf]

Strength of will is based off wisdom, not charisma; charisma is force of personality.

Really an explanation of how it is supposed to make you faster isn't as mcuh of a concern as to if it is balanced or not. Charisma is actually a good analog to int when it comes to balance as both are pretty much exclusively used for skill checks or straight abilitity checks. I woudl say if we consider speed of thought valid and fair then a charisma based version of the feat makes sense as well.

Personally I'm not a fan of the various bonus swap feats they do lead to a more min/maxed style that I don't really like. Since this is only going to be a point benefit if you have a gap greater than +4 in your bonus between Dex and whatever swap your already looking at it only being applied to some pretty exceptionally high attributes.

From a perspective of wanting so combat utility out of your charisma there are some really good feats that expand on the feint and similar mechanics that do pretty well with that.

[Lord Fell]

I see Speed of Thought as more of a "predictive + preparedness" than actual speed of movement.

Eg: the kidnapper masquerading as an encyclopedia salesman reaches into his sales-trunk, to pull out a big tranquilizer to use... but when he turns around his quarry is gone! Spinning around again, he's just in time to flinch before being slammed into his open trunk. "You should have known better than to trick Dr. Stephan Hawking you cretin! Ah-ah-ah." Slammed with powered wheel-chair, and dissed by a type & speak voice synthesizer... terrible for the street cred.

[Sacerdos]

How does "I'm smart enough to go first" make any less sense than "I'm motivated to go first"?

More like, "My brain moves so quickly that I'm three steps ahead of you." And yes, that makes exactly as much sense as "I'm motivated to go first." The problem is that charisma isn't about motivating one's self; it's about motivating others. In other words, charisma works much better for, "You're motivated to go first and protect me."