Insubstantial characters

[Sandman XI]

(15:08:33) angrydurf: So I just realized something rediculous

(15:08:41) Sandman_XI: i wll call him Crazy McCrazykins

(15:08:43) angrydurf: you can interpose while insubstantial

(15:08:53) Sandman_XI:

(15:08:58) Cyroa: how is that helpful?

(15:09:25) angrydurf: The attack is directed at you and resolved as normal

(15:09:47) Sandman_XI: which is though you

(15:09:55) Cyroa: .....and passes through you and hits the other guy anyway.

(15:10:01) angrydurf: Which is not effecting you

(15:10:24) angrydurf: there is no mechanic for hitting things through an insubstantial character

(15:10:40) Electra: You'd think it would just go through and hit the other guy.

(15:10:47) angrydurf: if some one shoots through DS its a setback if it hits something else important

(15:10:48) Sandman_XI: there is common sense

(15:10:53) Cyroa: yeah, that was my point.

(15:10:55) angrydurf: Logic has no place here

(15:11:13) Cyroa: I'd go wth common sense but that is often overruled

(15:11:18) Electra: Well, at least you could get an HP for yourself, even if your buddy still gets shot?

(15:11:30) angrydurf: You interpose you are treated as the target and the attack resolves as normal

(15:11:36) Sandman_XI: no HP for stupidity

(15:12:08) Sandman_XI: yes, the attack does not affect you as you are not there

(15:12:37) Electra: That makes no sense.

(15:12:38) Sandman_XI: we're rules sticklers but we're not crazy

(15:12:54) angrydurf: I'm just saying its rediculous

(15:12:59) Electra: The attack would just go through you and hit the other guy even if you interpose.

(15:13:06) angrydurf: cus by the actual rules thats how it works

(15:13:21) angrydurf: the attack is basically negated

(15:13:38) angrydurf: and you are not rules sticklers here

(15:13:41) angrydurf: at all

(15:13:52) angrydurf: Ronins sheet alone proves that

(15:14:01) Sandman_XI: so, what happens when you shoot an insubstantial character?

(15:14:28) angrydurf: they are uneffected by the damage and you move on

So, insubstantial characters are treated like regular characters?

[alderwitch]

If someone is shooting Phantom and she's insubstantial, I'd say both she and the person getting hit by the bullet should get an HP for that. That's definately a setback.

Insubstantial is a costly power and most of the time if you run an insub character, you will be fighting something with affect insubstantial or whatever your weakness is. Unless you're pvping.

Interpose doesn't just mean 'I stand between you and the bad guy'. It could mean 'I make myself a much bigger threat' or even 'I shove the person out of the way'.

Saying the bullet goes through you and hits that guy over there is certainly valid but I think its really unfair not to hand out an HP for that.

[quotemyname]

So incredibly broken!

[Dr Archeville]

... if you're insubstantial, why are you trying to interpose in the first place? You can't be a "human shield" if the bullets (or whatever) are going to pass through you.

And what's wrong with Ronin's sheet?

[Avenger Assembled]

Insubstantial characters can't interpose, though of course they can block attacks that would actually injure them. (The mechanic to think about here is the "shooting/damaging through objects" one.) Why can't they? Because that would be silly.

And Ronin's not got regen from unconsciousness anymore, so he should be largely in-line. (If you object to his Variable Power, durf, take it up with the guys who wrote World of Freed.)

[angrydurf]

Why? I can't say but theres nothing stopping it from happening is what I noted. The entire convorsation was predicated On my statement that it was rediculous but it is how the feat and power interact. I don't see alot of Insubstantial types buying interpose anyway.

As for Ronins sheet his giant array of Guns/swords knives thats all custom equipment is exceptionally cheesy seeming since he apparently has it all available at any given time on his person to and its not standard Equipment but a big array of strike and blast powers with assorted extras and power feats with that standard equipment doesn't have so he has something akin to a weapons array like on Malices battle suit at 1/5 the price. mostly that in comparison to Ecals request for a cape with glide it seems silly that one was approved and the other denied. Or compare that to how much the refs frown on price shaving on attack and defense with accurate attack and attack focus/dodge focus, its kinda inconsistant.

Then he has a custom varriable power, when it specifically says in the character creation guidlines that the refs will not approve custom varriables (personally I don't have an issue with varriable powers but its odd how one thing is said and another thing gets approved).

On the main topic yes logically bullets etc go right through but the way interpose works is you make yourself the new target and your ally isn't hit even if they miss you. The attack is then resolved normally. Normally the attacks on an insubstantial person pass harmlessly through them (assuming the insubstantial is effective), if a GM wants to have some bad effect come of the bullets going through you they give you an HP for the setback. So if some one shells out the 21pp for insubstantial and interpose you would give them the HP if you can't handle the breach of "realism" of not being able to shoot right through the insubstantial person. I will note also that even if your opponant is insubstantial you still have a -4 to be hit if you are in melee with them. Just something funny I noted.

[Dr Archeville]

Ronin's VP isn't a custom thing, it's straight from Warriors & Warlocks. And aside from the "Whirling Blades" thing, all Ronin's Equipment is standard weapons you can really buy (which wasn't the case with Arrowhawk's cloak).

I wouldn't hand out an HP for the insubstantial interpose failure.

You do realize the rules don't take into account every possible combination, right? They didn't bother clarifying what happens when someone with Insubstantial tries to Interpose b/c... well... when has that ever happened?

I believe the -4 for shooting into melee is only used if you want to avoid hitting an ally. If Knievel is shooting at Phantom & Phalanx, he's not going to take the -4 b/c he won't care if he hits one or the other, as long as he hits one.

[quotemyname]

You know you've hit the big time when you're being used in campaign discussion examples ;)

[alderwitch]

I would like to point out that for the PP, instead of Insubstantial 4, you could have Impervious 10. I wouldn't buy interpose on my insubstantial character because I do think its silly. But if Phantom is standing in front of someone and they fire at her, her insubstantial lets her ignore it and then the ref decides that the bullet hits the person behind her, I do think that would be a setback. Its basically attacking two people for the price of one. Insubstantial is really not overpowered for cost and how freaking common affects insubstantial crops up. Especially since if you want to use any of your powers from insubstantial, you have to add an extra to each one. I really like it for the theme of my character and thats why she has it but it isn't broken the way it works already.

[angrydurf]

Ronin's VP isn't a custom thing, it's straight from Warriors & Warlocks. And aside from the "Whirling Blades" thing, all Ronin's Equipment is standard weapons you can really buy (which wasn't the case with Arrowhawk's cloak).

I wouldn't hand out an HP for the insubstantial interpose failure.

You do realize the rules don't take into account every possible combination, right? They didn't bother clarifying what happens when someone with Insubstantial tries to Interpose b/c... well... when has that ever happened?

I believe the -4 for shooting into melee is only used if you want to avoid hitting an ally. If Knievel is shooting at Phantom & Phalanx, he's not going to take the -4 b/c he won't care if he hits one or the other, as long as he hits one.

Well as I said formt the start its a silly hole int he rules and that leaves it up to ya'all to decide how it works if it ever actually comes up I suppose. I didn't know that was from W&W (one of the few I don't have) his equipment may be things you can buy but they don't use the stats provided for them in the book. To me that equipment array is worse points shaving than the Attack for attackfocus or attack spec. that usually gets the Refs up in arms (or at least gets them to request less of it) but that too is fine I just used that as an example that you all aren't hard-cases on the rules which is fine too.

[Geez3r]

The bullets would pass right through and hit the person on the other side of Dark Star.

He has Protection. If he had a Force Field instead, the bullets would be stopped.

A similar occurrence would happen with Phantom because her Force Field is AP'd off her Insubstantial.

[Avenger Assembled]

Though of course you could only do the shoot through and hit behind trick if they were using the Interpose feat and if the attack hit automatically anyway. Naturally you can't just shoot through an insubstantial person and hit someone else unless things are specifically set up that way. As for Ronin's VP, like I said, call the guy who wrote Worlds of Freedom. Complain about the Civil War chapter while you're at it. (Bleah. )

[angrydurf]

(15:08:33) angrydurf: So I just realized something rediculous

(15:08:41) Sandman_XI: i wll call him Crazy McCrazykins

(15:08:43) angrydurf: you can interpose while insubstantial

Well that was and remains my opinion on the whole insubstantial thing. Acording to the written rule you can. Its fine and reasonable for a GM to say "Physics, even superhero physics, don't work that way."

As for Ronin, it was just the example that lept first to mind. I stand corrected on th VP being custom. Honestly other than the difficulty of managing them in a thread I don't see the issue even with custom VPs at the cost they have they are les efficient than a well constructed Array in general anyway. His big ol' arsenal equipment array seems like points shavign but again I'm not against points shaving personally it just been expressed as a no no here on certain things but not there.

I could just as easily use the example of Doc A's pile O' skills on his HQ that his data link lets him access almost anywhere, or Knievals Teleporter that I think is set to let him have teleport at 1/5th cost though long range only (At least thats what I last read there, Don't know if it got changed before the edit went through) all legal but deffinately points shaving.

[Dr Archeville]

I could just as easily use the example of Doc A's pile O' skills on his HQ that his data link lets him access almost anywhere

I know I've explained this before: the Comm Link isn't what lets me access the skill bonuses. Using Gadgets to get Enhanced Skills is what gives Doc Enhanced Skills; the Comm Link bit is flavor to explain how it's working.

[quotemyname]

What's suddenly so wrong with points shaving? :?

[angrydurf]

well it seems I've been woefully misinformed

That'll teach me to pay attention to Shaens mad ramblings.

[Ecalsneerg]

Ronin's VP isn't a custom thing, it's straight from Warriors & Warlocks. And aside from the "Whirling Blades" thing, all Ronin's Equipment is standard weapons you can really buy (which wasn't the case with Arrowhawk's cloak).

Isn't "all his equipment is standard except it all isn't" a bit of a contradiction in terms? And when he has sub-machine guns at Blast 5 (Autofire 2) instead of Blast 4 (Autofire 1), his Sniper Rifle is Blast 7, not 5 and he has Fragmentation grenades at 3 ranks higher than equipment listings. So, while I'm willing to admit it's closer to basic equipment, it's still considerably more souped up than a normal example of the same weaponry in the book.

[quotemyname]

But that's his schtick!

[Ecalsneerg]

Hello, Device structure. Have we met?

If something is your entire schtick, it's a Device. If you buy it as Equipment, sooner or later a DM is going to realise equipment is so cheap because it can be taken away at any time (and for that discount, should be). i.e. your entire schtick is that you can lose your whole schtick at the DM's whim.

[quotemyname]

Yep! Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't!

[N/A]

I know I've explained this before: the Comm Link isn't what lets me access the skill bonuses. Using Gadgets to get Enhanced Skills is what gives Doc Enhanced Skills; the Comm Link bit is flavor to explain how it's working.

*takes a second look at DocA's sheet*

So it is. Huh. I stand corrected.

My complaints about getting an Equipment discount on over 100 ranks worth of Skills are hereby officially withdrawn, since that's not really what's happening here.

[Warmonger]

:super: