Substitution

[quotemyname]

The Substitution power in Mecha and Manga

I know most of this book is cheese and not flavored for what we are looking for in these boards, but I would like to inquire specifically about this power with regards to our case by case basis policy.

If instead of *substituting a length of sawed off wood* I were to have Captain Knievel *jump out of the way of an attack* shortly before it would have hit him, so quickly that the attack looks like it should have connected, would this be able to apply?

It would fit his training descriptors, etc. Which is why I want to flavor it as less of a "ninja swap" power and more of a "GTFO of the way" power.

I may or may not wrap this power into a Device. If I do it may become something more of a "teleport out of the way at the last second" sort of thing.

Whatever happens, the rank of this power will likely be VERY low (1 maybe 2 ranks)

Opinions?

[Sandman XI]

I don't see what the problem is with max ranks is. It's limited to PL, so the farthest someone can go is 140 feet, not very far. Also, it's not a failsafe as there has to be something to hide behind within the range of the Substitution.

[quotemyname]

Well the problem with max ranks is that I can't afford it currently This is something that I am thinking of building up to. I was more concerned about being able to adjust the flavor of the power to the game that we are running here. Captain Knievel is not the type of character that would *poof* out of the way of an attack and leave a log behind him.

[angrydurf]

I would suggest the exercise of building it as a deflect(All ranged and melee) linked with short range only teleport. Adjust the actions as needed to match substitution and see what you get. If cost is comprable substitution would be balanced. If its substantially lower (which experiance thus far with Me&Ma suggests it would be) its undercosted and cheesy.

admittedly Deflect is an awful power, but its a good baseline of intended balance for "active defense" powers.

You might also think about something like TP X (Extra: Action: Reaction; Flaws: Limited: short range only, Limited: Only after missed with an attack; PF's: Whatever) To just use knievals defense score to represent the getting out of the way and add in teleport functionality and the basic descriptor of TP dodge still can apply.

I have to ask though how much sense any of this really makes for Knieval IG and OOG?

He's an up close fighter with enough speed/leaping to close the distance to melee why would he TP away from a fight unless he was just fleeing? (which seems more like using normal TP to escape)

[quotemyname]

You might also think about something like TP X (Extra: Action: Reaction; Flaws: Limited: short range only, Limited: Only after missed with an attack; PF's: Whatever) To just use knievals defense score to represent the getting out of the way and add in teleport functionality and the basic descriptor of TP dodge still can apply.

It's an idea, but substitution triggers when you're hit, not when you're missed.

I have to ask though how much sense any of this really makes for Knieval IG and OOG?

He's an up close fighter with enough speed/leaping to close the distance to melee why would he TP away from a fight unless he was just fleeing? (which seems more like using normal TP to escape)

It's just another tool for him to use in a fight. It could be something he was working on for a while and has just now perfected. It could be, "You think you got me but you didn't! Guess what! I'm over here now!" Makes him even harder to pin down. Thing is its practically useless at lower ranks. because the DC of the power check is the DC of either the reflex save or the damage (and this can be pretty high) and the with 1 rank it would only be a roll of 1d20+1 and almost impossible to substitute out of the way of anything above say mook level damage and attacks (which probably wouldn't hit him anyway). I am looking towards the future with this power (the far future).

I would suggest the exercise of building it as a deflect(All ranged and melee) linked with short range only teleport. Adjust the actions as needed to match substitution and see what you get. If cost is comprable substitution would be balanced. If its substantially lower (which experiance thus far with Me&Ma suggests it would be) its undercosted and cheesy.

I'll crunch some numbers and see what it gets me

[quotemyname]

So I crunched some numbers. Here's what I came up with:

Teleport 1 (Extras: Action/Reaction [+2], Linked to Deflect [+0]; Flaws: Short Range [-1], Limited: Only after being hit by an attack [-1])

Deflect X (All Ranged and Melee [3pp/r]; Extras: Action/Free [+2])

The base cost of this power would be 2pp for the teleport, since you only need one rank of teleport to model the short range of Substitution. Then you must pay an additional 5pp for every rank in Deflect you want to purchase. Also you must take a free action every round to keep this power active. Therefore it won't even stay up if you get stunned (assuming a successful concentration check). If you wanted Reactionary Deflect, you would have to pay 6pp/r.

So Substitution 1 is [2pp]. Tuck and Roll 1 is [7pp].

Hmm, seems broken to me >_>

If I'm doing this wrong let me know.

EDIT: Additional study:

If you consider the following limits, I might be able to take down the cost of the power some more.

Teleportation: Limited to 10ft per rank

Deflect: Limited to 1 deflection per round

This would result in:

Teleport 1 (Extras: Action/Reaction [+2], Linked to Deflect [+0]; Flaws: Short Range [-1], Limited: Only after being hit by an attack [-1], Limited to 10ft per rank [-1]) {1pp/r}

Deflect X (All Ranged and Melee [3pp/r]; Extras: Action/Free [+2]; Flaws: Limited to 1 deflection per round [-1]) {4pp/r}

for a total cost of 5pp at rank 1, but it would still be 5pp for each additional rank, since you now need to upgrade the range of the teleport to get the desired effect. Also, you can only deflect once. Substitution allows for more than one deflection albeit at a -2 each time.

[Geez3r]

You also can slap the Fades flaw on the Deflect portion. In fact, you lose 2 ranks of the power with each successful use, instead of 1 power point. Worth at least a -2 Flaw in my opinion.

[quotemyname]

Good Idea, also, on further inspection, I determined that I can probably use the flaw: Deflect Power Check suffers a cumulative -2 each successive time it is used in a single combat [-1]. Rather than: Flaws: Limited to 1 deflection per round [-1]. And it would come in closer to the effect of Substitution.

New version:

Teleport 1 (Extras: Action/Reaction [+2], Linked to Deflect [+0]; Flaws: Short Range [-1], Limited: Only after being hit by an attack [-1], Limited to 10ft per rank [-1]) {1pp/r}

Deflect X (All Ranged and Melee [3pp/r]; Extras: Action/Free [+2]; Flaws: Deflect Power Check suffers a cumulative -2 each successive time it is used in a single combat [-1], Fades [-2]) {2pp/r}

For a result of 3pp/rank. Getting closer

Anyone else have suggestions?

[Sandman XI]

For a result of 3pp/rank. Getting closer

Anyone else have suggestions?

Did we have qualms with just using Substitution?

[quotemyname]

Not that I know of. Though, it seems that Durf does. I was just doing this as practice at making powers, and to satisfy him ;)

[angrydurf]

I don't specifically hav an issue with it. I don't even have the book but the first post sounded like he was wondering if it was a reasonable power and since Me & Ma powers tend towards being undercosted I suggested he try and stat it out with the obvious parallel.

So looking at the TP portion its so short range etc by comparison that really its almost not worth mentioning.

So really I think the most direct comparison would be strait deflect the TP makes it a bit better but basically this power is about stopping an attack.

To be able to deflect without takign a move or standard action is 5pp/rank. Saying that its VS the toughness save instead of the attack roll would likely be a 1pt flaw similar to an damage effect using an alternate save is a 1 point extra. That brings it to 4pp per rank. Deflect already has the -2 per aditional attack you attempt to block so thats an even comparison.

To me it looks like its Deflect with a bonus short TP for half the cost.

[Avenger Assembled]

It's from Mecha and Manga, so of course we'll be taking a hard look at it. Even without doing the math, there's some really dodgy stuff in that book.

[quotemyname]

That's why I'm not even bothering considering it for this month. Just figured that it would be worth bringing up. It would be neat to have :)