Question for a Villian Concept

[MBCE]

Torture also would not be able to nullify any powers generated by things that don't have minds: forcefields generated by equipment, robots, people with immunity to mental powers, etc.

He also would not be able to nullify any existing effects that no longer had a mind connected to them.

Ex. Trapmaster leaves a Triggered Blast trap for Torture and then leaves the area.

Ex. Chickenman transforms Sally into a chicken with his continuous Transform power, and then is suddenly hit by a car and killed (poor Chickenman). His power continues to function, and Torture couldn't nullify it.

Stuff like that.

All of the above are correct. He takes out the source, not the result. He is a villian afterall. :)

[Barnum]

All of the above are correct. He takes out the source, not the result. He is a villian afterall.

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

[Barnum]

All of the above are correct. He takes out the source, not the result. He is a villian afterall.

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

[Barnum]

All of the above are correct. He takes out the source, not the result. He is a villian afterall.

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

[MBCE]

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

I've got about most of the character done up except for this one power and how to write it up. Perhaps it would be best to put up everything else for people to look at and that might help make the final leap.

[MBCE]

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

I've got about most of the character done up except for this one power and how to write it up. Perhaps it would be best to put up everything else for people to look at and that might help make the final leap.

[MBCE]

Isn't that exactly what power control does?

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

I've got about most of the character done up except for this one power and how to write it up. Perhaps it would be best to put up everything else for people to look at and that might help make the final leap.

[Barnum]

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

I think I see what you're after now. And you are correct, Power Control would not let you "turn off" permanent powers, though you could nullify permanent powers (as long as they were not "innate").

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

Probably, but as you pointed out, you can do some things with Power Control that you can't do with your flawed version of Nullify (like turn powers on). Power Control is also a sustained (lasting) effect by default.

[Barnum]

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

I think I see what you're after now. And you are correct, Power Control would not let you "turn off" permanent powers, though you could nullify permanent powers (as long as they were not "innate").

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

Probably, but as you pointed out, you can do some things with Power Control that you can't do with your flawed version of Nullify (like turn powers on). Power Control is also a sustained (lasting) effect by default.

[Barnum]

The problem with power control that I see, are the following:

a) It can do nothing against uncontrollable powers. Tortue is able to cut those off.

It gives additional saves to resist the control. With the Mind reading, I don't see that as really needed.

c) Power control, in my mind allows the character to control a hero's powers. A little too much power possibly.

Overall, the first problem with power control is the big problem with it. If he reads a hero has Protection, or Immunity to Fortitude saves, he should be able to turn them off. I'm not sure if Power control does that.

I think I see what you're after now. And you are correct, Power Control would not let you "turn off" permanent powers, though you could nullify permanent powers (as long as they were not "innate").

Also, isn't it cheaper to pick up the Nullify and slap on limitations than to put the extras on Power control?

Probably, but as you pointed out, you can do some things with Power Control that you can't do with your flawed version of Nullify (like turn powers on). Power Control is also a sustained (lasting) effect by default.

[MBCE]

Well, the past few weeks I've been doing a lot of thinking about this concept again. Here a few more questions I have.

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Also,is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

[MBCE]

Well, the past few weeks I've been doing a lot of thinking about this concept again. Here a few more questions I have.

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Also,is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

[MBCE]

Well, the past few weeks I've been doing a lot of thinking about this concept again. Here a few more questions I have.

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Also,is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

[Barnum]

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Also, is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I would say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

[Barnum]

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Also, is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I would say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

[Barnum]

Are there power limits on powers like Mind reading and nullify? Both of which use opposed rolls to determine success so they shouldn't be limited by power level caps, right?

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Also, is nullify [biological powers] good enough for a 2pp/rank ability? Would nullify [known powers] work?

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I would say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

[Heridfel]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

[Heridfel]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

[Heridfel]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

[MBCE]

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Are you sure? In my copy of the UP, it says clearly under Mind control and Nullify that they are opposed power check rolls. Are opposed powers check capped?

Mind reading, p65 To use Mind Reading, make an opposed power check against the result of the target’s Will saving throw.

Nullify (effect), p69 Make a ranged attack roll to hit the target. Then make an opposed check of your Nullify rank and the effect’s rank or the target’s Will save, whichever is higher.

Now, considering that you're correct, that these powers are limited due to forcing a Save, then how can they overcome anyone? In a PL10, the max Save bonus is +15. That's five points over the PL yet powers that force a save can't get that high. I know most heroes rarely hit the max in saves, but it does get me wondering how that works out.

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I wouldn't say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

As I listed above, I did say 2pp version of Nullify, not 3pp. To clarify what I mean by Biological powers, it would fall under the source of the power. So, powers that have the source of coming from inside of the character, would fall under the effect. This would mean no technology powers or magic based powers.

With 'known powers' it would mean all the powers learned through his mind reading, a major limitation of the power. It would mean that he would have to study a hero before he could even think about nullifying their powers. So he would first need the Will save to read their thoughts, followed by an attack roll, and finally the opposed saving throw. So putting the nullify to 2pp/rank version with the descriptor of 'known powers' would still work out the same. I admit, I haven't realy looked at the drawback/flaws section in detail yet as I dislike going that route. I'll look into them in more details later.

Perhaps I should study up on exactly how the nullfy effect works. Please let me know if I have this right or wrong.

1pp/rank -- You can nullify one effect that shares the descriptor at a time. For example, fire. So any powers used that have 'fire' in their description would be effected one at a time. (Fire blast, Fire shield, Fire form but not Heatvision, Heat control, or Immunity to heat.) Conversely, it can nullify one particular named effect. (Snare, Teleport)

2pp/rank -- You can nullify all effects that share the descriptor. So in the example above, if a hero had all three forms of fire powers, I could nullify them all at once. Conversely, I could choose a 'type' such as Attack type powers and nullify all powers of that type at once.

3pp/rank -- Nullify all effects(powers) without regard to descriptors all at once. So, a hero with fire control, immunity to mind effects, and flight could have all the powers nullified if they fail their ability check.

[MBCE]

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Are you sure? In my copy of the UP, it says clearly under Mind control and Nullify that they are opposed power check rolls. Are opposed powers check capped?

Mind reading, p65 To use Mind Reading, make an opposed power check against the result of the target’s Will saving throw.

Nullify (effect), p69 Make a ranged attack roll to hit the target. Then make an opposed check of your Nullify rank and the effect’s rank or the target’s Will save, whichever is higher.

Now, considering that you're correct, that these powers are limited due to forcing a Save, then how can they overcome anyone? In a PL10, the max Save bonus is +15. That's five points over the PL yet powers that force a save can't get that high. I know most heroes rarely hit the max in saves, but it does get me wondering how that works out.

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I wouldn't say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

As I listed above, I did say 2pp version of Nullify, not 3pp. To clarify what I mean by Biological powers, it would fall under the source of the power. So, powers that have the source of coming from inside of the character, would fall under the effect. This would mean no technology powers or magic based powers.

With 'known powers' it would mean all the powers learned through his mind reading, a major limitation of the power. It would mean that he would have to study a hero before he could even think about nullifying their powers. So he would first need the Will save to read their thoughts, followed by an attack roll, and finally the opposed saving throw. So putting the nullify to 2pp/rank version with the descriptor of 'known powers' would still work out the same. I admit, I haven't realy looked at the drawback/flaws section in detail yet as I dislike going that route. I'll look into them in more details later.

Perhaps I should study up on exactly how the nullfy effect works. Please let me know if I have this right or wrong.

1pp/rank -- You can nullify one effect that shares the descriptor at a time. For example, fire. So any powers used that have 'fire' in their description would be effected one at a time. (Fire blast, Fire shield, Fire form but not Heatvision, Heat control, or Immunity to heat.) Conversely, it can nullify one particular named effect. (Snare, Teleport)

2pp/rank -- You can nullify all effects that share the descriptor. So in the example above, if a hero had all three forms of fire powers, I could nullify them all at once. Conversely, I could choose a 'type' such as Attack type powers and nullify all powers of that type at once.

3pp/rank -- Nullify all effects(powers) without regard to descriptors all at once. So, a hero with fire control, immunity to mind effects, and flight could have all the powers nullified if they fail their ability check.

[MBCE]

Yes they are capped by PL. Mind Reading and Nullify both provoke a Will save (though it isn't always a Will save with Nullify).

Are you sure? In my copy of the UP, it says clearly under Mind control and Nullify that they are opposed power check rolls. Are opposed powers check capped?

Mind reading, p65 To use Mind Reading, make an opposed power check against the result of the target’s Will saving throw.

Nullify (effect), p69 Make a ranged attack roll to hit the target. Then make an opposed check of your Nullify rank and the effect’s rank or the target’s Will save, whichever is higher.

Now, considering that you're correct, that these powers are limited due to forcing a Save, then how can they overcome anyone? In a PL10, the max Save bonus is +15. That's five points over the PL yet powers that force a save can't get that high. I know most heroes rarely hit the max in saves, but it does get me wondering how that works out.

If by "known powers" you mean, "powers that I the nullifier know about" then I wouldn't say that is the 3 point version of Nullify with a very low cost Power Loss drawback added on. As for "Biological Powers," I couldn't really say without some clarification. What do you mean by "Biological Powers?" At first glance I would think you mean powers with a "biological" descriptor . . . as in the phrase "biological weapons" (e.g. Pheromones or some sort of Disease or Spores). Please clarify.

As I listed above, I did say 2pp version of Nullify, not 3pp. To clarify what I mean by Biological powers, it would fall under the source of the power. So, powers that have the source of coming from inside of the character, would fall under the effect. This would mean no technology powers or magic based powers.

With 'known powers' it would mean all the powers learned through his mind reading, a major limitation of the power. It would mean that he would have to study a hero before he could even think about nullifying their powers. So he would first need the Will save to read their thoughts, followed by an attack roll, and finally the opposed saving throw. So putting the nullify to 2pp/rank version with the descriptor of 'known powers' would still work out the same. I admit, I haven't realy looked at the drawback/flaws section in detail yet as I dislike going that route. I'll look into them in more details later.

Perhaps I should study up on exactly how the nullfy effect works. Please let me know if I have this right or wrong.

1pp/rank -- You can nullify one effect that shares the descriptor at a time. For example, fire. So any powers used that have 'fire' in their description would be effected one at a time. (Fire blast, Fire shield, Fire form but not Heatvision, Heat control, or Immunity to heat.) Conversely, it can nullify one particular named effect. (Snare, Teleport)

2pp/rank -- You can nullify all effects that share the descriptor. So in the example above, if a hero had all three forms of fire powers, I could nullify them all at once. Conversely, I could choose a 'type' such as Attack type powers and nullify all powers of that type at once.

3pp/rank -- Nullify all effects(powers) without regard to descriptors all at once. So, a hero with fire control, immunity to mind effects, and flight could have all the powers nullified if they fail their ability check.

[MBCE]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.

[MBCE]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.

[MBCE]

On the other hand, I don't usually consider Telepathy to be capped, even though it's nothing more than mental Communication and Mind Reading in a tiny Container. I just say that the DC for the Mind Reading portion is capped at PL and allow the full power to go higher to increase the effective range.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.