Question for a Villian Concept

[Barnum]

If a player wanted to buy Telepathy at a rank greater than PL to get a greater range on their mental communication, I would just have them buy the two powers (Mind Reading and Mental Communication) separately. The range on Mind Reading is "Perception." And the range on mental communication is determined by rank, so keeping them separate in that case would be the way to go. It may even save the player some PPs.

[Barnum]

If a player wanted to buy Telepathy at a rank greater than PL to get a greater range on their mental communication, I would just have them buy the two powers (Mind Reading and Mental Communication) separately. The range on Mind Reading is "Perception." And the range on mental communication is determined by rank, so keeping them separate in that case would be the way to go. It may even save the player some PPs.

[Barnum]

If a player wanted to buy Telepathy at a rank greater than PL to get a greater range on their mental communication, I would just have them buy the two powers (Mind Reading and Mental Communication) separately. The range on Mind Reading is "Perception." And the range on mental communication is determined by rank, so keeping them separate in that case would be the way to go. It may even save the player some PPs.

[Heridfel]

The problem with Telepathy as described in UP is that it has two ranges and uses the worse of the two durations of its component powers. If you view them as separate powers, then you can speak at the given distance, but the other person has no way to respond (since they don't have Communication themselves). The two ways around this (at least, the two easiest ways) are adding "Affects Others" to the Communication, so they can talk back, or having Mind Reading to read the responses.

I know that Mind Reading technically shouldn't work that way (wrong range, longer action), but it fits how Telepathy usually works in comics, so I tend to house rule it. As much as I hate to house rule things.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.

The only benefit of buying ranks in Communication is increasing the range. It wouldn't be appropriate to use Progression to increase that, the same way that it wouldn't be appropriate to use it to increase Flight speed. (It's also the same cost to buy Progression as it is to buy Communication, so unless the Communication has extras, it usually doesn't make a difference.)

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

[Heridfel]

The problem with Telepathy as described in UP is that it has two ranges and uses the worse of the two durations of its component powers. If you view them as separate powers, then you can speak at the given distance, but the other person has no way to respond (since they don't have Communication themselves). The two ways around this (at least, the two easiest ways) are adding "Affects Others" to the Communication, so they can talk back, or having Mind Reading to read the responses.

I know that Mind Reading technically shouldn't work that way (wrong range, longer action), but it fits how Telepathy usually works in comics, so I tend to house rule it. As much as I hate to house rule things.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.

The only benefit of buying ranks in Communication is increasing the range. It wouldn't be appropriate to use Progression to increase that, the same way that it wouldn't be appropriate to use it to increase Flight speed. (It's also the same cost to buy Progression as it is to buy Communication, so unless the Communication has extras, it usually doesn't make a difference.)

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

[Heridfel]

The problem with Telepathy as described in UP is that it has two ranges and uses the worse of the two durations of its component powers. If you view them as separate powers, then you can speak at the given distance, but the other person has no way to respond (since they don't have Communication themselves). The two ways around this (at least, the two easiest ways) are adding "Affects Others" to the Communication, so they can talk back, or having Mind Reading to read the responses.

I know that Mind Reading technically shouldn't work that way (wrong range, longer action), but it fits how Telepathy usually works in comics, so I tend to house rule it. As much as I hate to house rule things.

But shouldn't a player simply buy the progression or ranged power feats to increase the effective range then? Otherwise, you allow players with the telephaty power to avoid nullify(telepathy) fairly easily. Also, it allows for greater flexiblity when power stunting as they would have more pps to play with. Not very balanced even though you might limit what they could stunt off of Telepathy.

The only benefit of buying ranks in Communication is increasing the range. It wouldn't be appropriate to use Progression to increase that, the same way that it wouldn't be appropriate to use it to increase Flight speed. (It's also the same cost to buy Progression as it is to buy Communication, so unless the Communication has extras, it usually doesn't make a difference.)

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

[MBCE]

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

I thought that power stunting only gives you the base pps, not the added on PFs. So a power that costs 2pp/rank with 3PFs ranked at 10 would have only 20 pps to spread to the various APs in the array. To keep things simple, let's say there is only one AP to the array and the other two Pfs are subtle and split attack.

So, Array rank 10 [Ap]

That would mean the blast has only 20pps to buy its own pfs and the two Pfs on the array do not affect the AP.

[MBCE]

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

I thought that power stunting only gives you the base pps, not the added on PFs. So a power that costs 2pp/rank with 3PFs ranked at 10 would have only 20 pps to spread to the various APs in the array. To keep things simple, let's say there is only one AP to the array and the other two Pfs are subtle and split attack.

So, Array rank 10 [Ap]

That would mean the blast has only 20pps to buy its own pfs and the two Pfs on the array do not affect the AP.

[MBCE]

Furthermore, they'd get the extra pp for power stunting whether or not they purchased a power feat or a power itself. It's usually disadvantageous, pp-wise - they get a better overall rank for the Telepathy, but don't gain the benefit of the increased DC for when they use Mind Reading offensively.

I thought that power stunting only gives you the base pps, not the added on PFs. So a power that costs 2pp/rank with 3PFs ranked at 10 would have only 20 pps to spread to the various APs in the array. To keep things simple, let's say there is only one AP to the array and the other two Pfs are subtle and split attack.

So, Array rank 10 [Ap]

That would mean the blast has only 20pps to buy its own pfs and the two Pfs on the array do not affect the AP.

[Heridfel]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those Alternate Powers.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

[Heridfel]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those Alternate Powers.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

[Heridfel]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those Alternate Powers.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

[MBCE]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those power feats.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

That's good to know.

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

[MBCE]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those power feats.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

That's good to know.

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

[MBCE]

That's not correct. You get all the power points in the power (from the base effect, extras, power feats, and reduced by any flaws or power drawbacks) with two main exceptions: any points spent to buy Alternate Power (the power feat) or Dynamic (the power feat) are not available for those power feats.

In your example, any alternate powers of the Blast 10 (PF: Subtle, Split Attack) could have up to 22 pp.

That's good to know.

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

[Heridfel]

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there. The AP doesn't care about the other powers; for the most part, it just looks at how many pp it gets from the main power.

[Heridfel]

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there. The AP doesn't care about the other powers; for the most part, it just looks at how many pp it gets from the main power.

[Heridfel]

Now to follow up with a different question. Does the properties of the base power have any effect on the APs in an array?

To use a similar example as before, let's say the base power of the Array is Sonic control which by the very nature of the power affects insubstantial [sensory effects affect without having the PF added on]. Would the AP of blast then affect insubstatials as well?

Also, wouldn't that mean that any Pfs bought on the base power would/could translate to all of the Aps?

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there. The AP doesn't care about the other powers; for the most part, it just looks at how many pp it gets from the main power.

[MBCE]

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

So if the AP has the descriptor of "Sonic Blast" for exmple, it would affect insubstantials if the GM allowed it? In the case of the main power being probability control, the AP being Damage, the damage should therefore be sublte if the damage is described as "improbable accidents" which is how the UP book describes the Damage AP. Is that a fair way of thinking?

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there.

Okay. That makes sense. I'll have to go over some other characters to make sure I haven't wasted any points. :D

[MBCE]

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

So if the AP has the descriptor of "Sonic Blast" for exmple, it would affect insubstantials if the GM allowed it? In the case of the main power being probability control, the AP being Damage, the damage should therefore be sublte if the damage is described as "improbable accidents" which is how the UP book describes the Damage AP. Is that a fair way of thinking?

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there.

Okay. That makes sense. I'll have to go over some other characters to make sure I haven't wasted any points. :D

[MBCE]

The answer to the first question is "Mostly no". The effects remain separate. If you have Dazzle as the main power, a Blast AP would not Affect Insubstantial by default. The reason it isn't "always no" is because the APs should still share some common descriptors. Even though descriptors don't cost points, they're still a property of a power. In the example, both the Sonic Control (Dazzle) and Blast should have something like a Sonic descriptor and a power source descriptor (super-science, mutant, magic, and so on). That's part of being an alternate power - it comes from the same sort of source as the main power.

So if the AP has the descriptor of "Sonic Blast" for exmple, it would affect insubstantials if the GM allowed it? In the case of the main power being probability control, the AP being Damage, the damage should therefore be sublte if the damage is described as "improbable accidents" which is how the UP book describes the Damage AP. Is that a fair way of thinking?

The answer to the second question is "Yes, any PFs on the main power could be applied to the APs" but with the caveat that it's based on what the PFs and APs are. To go back to your example, let's assume that you chose Blast as the main power and took Sonic Control as the AP. If you bought Affects Insubstantial 2 on the Blast, you could use those points for something else on the Sonic Control since they do not do anything there.

Okay. That makes sense. I'll have to go over some other characters to make sure I haven't wasted any points. :D

[Heridfel]

Well, descriptors do not have effects in and of themselves. They're more to do with describing how the powers interact with the world around them. A lightning blast into a pool of water might gain the Area extra (at the cost of a lower DC) without using extra effort.

The sonic blast would still not affect insubstantial beings without the appropriate power feat - you can deafen them, but you can't vibrate their lack of molecules or whatever the insubstantial represents. While it doesn't always make sense from a mechanical perspective, M&M is a game designed to emulate the superhero genre, rather than to simulate reality.

Believe me, it boggles my mind when I look at how expensive a radio transmitter is in M&M (getting a decent range of 200 miles is rank 7, and making it an Area effect is +1, so it costs 14 pp to have a fairly basic transmitter). But overall, it doesn't have a lot of those gotchas, and we try to fix them where we can.

In your particular case, the Probability Control isn't Subtle by default. Even if it were, its APs wouldn't be Subtle unless you bought the power feat. It would somehow be clear that you were causing these improbable accidents.

[Heridfel]

Well, descriptors do not have effects in and of themselves. They're more to do with describing how the powers interact with the world around them. A lightning blast into a pool of water might gain the Area extra (at the cost of a lower DC) without using extra effort.

The sonic blast would still not affect insubstantial beings without the appropriate power feat - you can deafen them, but you can't vibrate their lack of molecules or whatever the insubstantial represents. While it doesn't always make sense from a mechanical perspective, M&M is a game designed to emulate the superhero genre, rather than to simulate reality.

Believe me, it boggles my mind when I look at how expensive a radio transmitter is in M&M (getting a decent range of 200 miles is rank 7, and making it an Area effect is +1, so it costs 14 pp to have a fairly basic transmitter). But overall, it doesn't have a lot of those gotchas, and we try to fix them where we can.

In your particular case, the Probability Control isn't Subtle by default. Even if it were, its APs wouldn't be Subtle unless you bought the power feat. It would somehow be clear that you were causing these improbable accidents.

[Heridfel]

Well, descriptors do not have effects in and of themselves. They're more to do with describing how the powers interact with the world around them. A lightning blast into a pool of water might gain the Area extra (at the cost of a lower DC) without using extra effort.

The sonic blast would still not affect insubstantial beings without the appropriate power feat - you can deafen them, but you can't vibrate their lack of molecules or whatever the insubstantial represents. While it doesn't always make sense from a mechanical perspective, M&M is a game designed to emulate the superhero genre, rather than to simulate reality.

Believe me, it boggles my mind when I look at how expensive a radio transmitter is in M&M (getting a decent range of 200 miles is rank 7, and making it an Area effect is +1, so it costs 14 pp to have a fairly basic transmitter). But overall, it doesn't have a lot of those gotchas, and we try to fix them where we can.

In your particular case, the Probability Control isn't Subtle by default. Even if it were, its APs wouldn't be Subtle unless you bought the power feat. It would somehow be clear that you were causing these improbable accidents.