Invasion! - West End (OOC)

[blink]

Ok perhaps I have things wrong...

When using improved grab I assumed I would be able to make an attack and maintain the pin (thus the choke hold). If this is the case then the demon needs to make a toughness roll against DC20 as well. That was the defensive attack part of things. I might be wrong as grappling wasn't really my strong suit, but I thought that's how it worked. So the chokehold is kind of a freebie.

As for the concealment, isn't that how the power works? I have the concealment power which lets me blend into the background which is what lets me get the stealth checks. Now I'd assume that the one that I am choking certainly knows I am there, so no sneak attacks or anything like that on him. However, doesn't the conceal from sight work regardless of what I am doing? Let me know, although I'll probably just leave my action as it is anyway. However, then I know for future rounds.

[Cyroa]

I'm no expert either and could easily be wrong. I only made the rolls you told me to. I'll get the toughness roll up shortly.

Is concealment invisisbility or just blending/camouflage ala the Predator? If it's invis, then yeah, they shouldn't see you even if they know you;re there. If it's the other, it should just make it harder to hit you (about the same as cover since a giant demon is between you and them) as they know you're there and can sorta make things out but still have cover. Not sure if I'm making sense...

edit:

(IC seems to be down and can't access chat atm so used alternate)

Roll(1d20)+11:

6,+11

Total:17

and thats a failure. Add 1 wound for the demon!

[blink]

Oh sure, make me look up the rules

Ok here are the relevant sections: (btw, if it's not cool to quote rules chunks for copyright reasons, let me know and I'll edit it into my words or delete it)

CONCEALMENT

Type: Sensory Action: Free (active)

Range: Personal Duration: Sustained

Saving Throw: None Cost: 2 points per rank


Using this effect, you gain total concealment from a particular sense—usually sight or hearing—although you are still detectable to other senses (even other senses of the same sense type). Each additional rank gives you concealment from another sense; two ranks give you concealment for an entire sense type.  Concealment from visual senses costs double (2 ranks for one visual sense, 4 ranks for all visual senses). You cannot have concealment from tactile senses, since that requires being incorporeal (see Insubstantial). So at rank 5, you can have total concealment from all visual senses (4 ranks) and normal hearing (1 rank), for

example. At rank 10 Concealment you have total concealment from all sense types other than tactile.


While concealed, you can make surprise attacks against targets unaware of your presence (see Surprise Attacks, M&M, page 163). Attackers have a 50% miss chance against you (a roll of 11 or better on d20), assuming they know where to attack at all! Attackers able to perceive you with an accurate sense suffer no penalties, and combat is resolved normally.


Someone can sense the presence of a concealed character within three Notice range increments with an acute sense (see Super-Senses for details) and a DC 20 Notice check, such as using hearing to detect a character concealed from sight. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there†but can’t accurately perceive it (suffering the normal miss chance, for example).  A concealed character holding still is harder to notice (DC 30). A concealed inanimate object or completely immobile creature is very hard to notice at close range (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to accurately pinpoint a concealed character’s location using an acute sense.


Here are the two flaws, which I don't have, that would apply to the predator style of concealment.

FLAWS

• Blending (–1): You “blend†into the background. Your Concealment only functions as long as you move no faster than your normal pace, since your blending can’t adapt faster than that.

• Passive (–1): Your Concealment only lasts until you make an attack—defined as any action requiring a saving throw—at which point it stops working until you reactivate it, which you may do on the round after you attack.

So I think I am concealed to them unless they have something like infravision, ultravision, xray vision, etc. Which means they know I am there, but still have a 50% miss chance because they don't know exactly where I am. The stealth check was for HiPS, which I can live with the fact that I can't use that while grappling. Let me know how you want to rule it and I'll go from there.

[quotemyname]

Improved grab has been errataed in the house rules: If you use improved grab to get a free grapple attempt after hitting with an unarmed attack, you may no longer choose the damage option as part of the grapple.

If you are already in a grapple, you can never damage them and maintain a pin at the same time unless you choose to surge.

Concealment makes you completely invisible to anyone who cannot pass the notice check:

Ultimate Power page 34:

While concealed, you can make surprise attacks against targets

unaware of your presence (see Surprise Attacks, M&M, page

163). Attackers have a 50% miss chance against you (a roll of

11 or better on d20), assuming they know where to attack at all!

Attackers able to perceive you with an accurate sense suffer no

penalties, and combat is resolved normally.

Someone can sense the presence of a concealed character

within three Notice range increments with an acute sense (see

Super-Senses for details) and a DC 20 Notice check, such as

using hearing to detect a character concealed from sight. The

observer gains a hunch that “something’s there†but can’t accu-

rately perceive it (suffering the normal miss chance, for example).

So I would say that since they know something's there, but cannot accurately perceive even the outline of her form, they should suffer the 50% miss chance whenever they attack her.

EDIT: Damn, you beat me to it. But I should add that if they DO have any of those super senses, they must be accurate in order to target you without the 50% miss chance.

[blink]

So then what is the use of the improved grapple feat then? Normally, that leaves a hand free while grappling. I assumed that meant I could maintain a pin and make an attack. As long as the first wasn't an attack to damage (being the house rule).

I thought it meant I could do the maintain pin (chokehold) + attack.

Edit: I realized I was saying improved grab. I meant improved grapple. Improved grab allows me to make an attack and immediately initiate a grapple, right?

[quotemyname]

Correct about improved grab. Incorrect about improved grapple.

The use of improved grapple is that it allows you to grapple more than one opponent at a time. One with one arm, another with the other arm. You can use your free hand to do things that require a free hand, like using a weapon or something, but you still can't get two grapple actions in the same turn. If you are choosing to deal damage it's assumed that you are using the hand that is doing the grappling to twist and bend their limbs painfully or some such. Or if you prefer, punching with the hand you're not using. The effect is the same: Damage. You still can't stack choke hold on top of that.

[blink]

So can I maintain the pin and cause damage in the same round? Or if I cause damage do I need to make another grapple check for the next round? What happens to my opponent on the round I damage them? Are they free to act as normal?

[quotemyname]

You cannot maintain the pin and cause damage in the same round.

If you choose the damage option, they remain grappled, and are subject to all the limitations of that condition. They must make an opposed grapple check on their turn to try and escape from the grapple. The advantage of pinning them comes from the fact that they have to succeed at two grapple checks. One to escape the pin and become grappled, and the other to escape the grapple for good.

Pinning someone makes it harder to escape. Damaging someone, well... causes damage.

[Warmonger]

Yes quote is well familiar with the grappling rules. Heck he is the reason Imporved Grab was errated.... I think. :GreatJob:

[quotemyname]

I can't take all the credit... They were thinking about it before I came along, but I may have influenced the decision somewhat...

>_>

<_<

*brushes shoulders off*

[blink]

Ok last question... how then, can I increase damage on the grapple? I can't take strike. Is strength the only measure to increase grapple damage?

[quotemyname]

You can still utilize the Power Attack feat and All-Out-Attack feat while in a grapple. Here are my thoughts/strategies on that:

If you are a grapple heavy character, you should have a ridiculous grapple bonus. Try power attacking when you grapple. Since you're already in the grapple, you don't need to roll to hit. Therefore the only thing that would be affected by the reduced attack bonus would be your grapple checks. Since this number should be really high, even a -5 won't affect your chances of maintaining a grapple all that much. Benefit: You have a much better chance of actually damaging foes.

If you are up against just one foe and you have a very good chance of keeping them grappled (at this point you hope they can't teleport or something.) feel free to use the power attack / all out attack combo. Therefore your grapple check won't suffer when you power attack to increase the damage your doing. However you want to be wary of using this combo when facing off against multiple opponents (if you cannot grapple them all at once). Especially if you lack the grappling finesse feat (In that case, using AoA would lower your already abysmal flat-footed defense even lower). However if there is just one enemy and you can reliably keep them pinned down (and thus not attacking you), there is no reason why you shouldn't lower your defense in order to keep them tied down.

---

As you already said that you can't buy strike, rising to the next step becomes difficult.

You already have sneak attack, which is a good combo for a grappler, because many opponents will not have Grappling Finesse, meaning they lose their dodge bonus to DEF, meaning you get your full sneak attack damage on them (Whether they are surprised or not).

If you still cannot make sneak attack apply, your options become even more limited. You could work on raising your strength score in order to benefit your base damage AND your grapple check (Why do you think Captain Knievel had such a high strength score?). You can get some sort of device that will allow you to purchase strike and possibly other grapple related abilities (Trust me when I say, device is never a bad idea. Never). Beyond that, strategies get even more complicated and depart from the, "I know this much without researching more," domain. However if you need me to come up with other strategies to help out your character development, I would be more than happy to... (Though hopefully I can do it sometime I don't have a ton of essays to work on).

[blink]

Ok I didn't know any of that. Consider me learned for the day. No, that's totally sufficient for what I needed to do. Next round comes the power attack! This thread is actually the first time I've got to use Blink in a grappling situation and it's really never come up in any of my games either Thanks a ton for the clarification and the pointers!

So Cyroa, my last attack would have had another +5 DC to it, since I get the sneak attack bonus! That should up it from a wound to something more substantial.

[Gizmo]

Why do you think Captain Knievel had such a high strength score?

Stupid laser whip...

Blink's grapple is absolutely beastly. +30? Fuhgeddaboudit.

[quotemyname]

Stupid laser whip...

LOL. Good times, good times. You should have seen what I had planned for Knievel! *scoffs at +30* :P

[blink]

Bumps into PL restrictions... a few more PP and 33 will be mine! It will I tell you!

I just read through the thread, that is very nasty.

[quotemyname]

And that is why devices are a wonderful thing.

By the way, who's turn is it? Are we still waiting for Cyroa to make saves and what not?

[blink]

Not sure, I think Cy needs to up the result on my attack by +5DC and then it's whomever is after me in the init order.

[quotemyname]

So instead of just being injured, the demon is injured and stunned. Now it is Grim's turn.

This is of course assuming the demon does not have grappling finesse, and that Cy does not want to reroll. If you do, Cy, go right ahead, etc. I'm just trying to help keep things moving :)

[Cyroa]

heh I don't look at the site for a day and the ooc thing jumps by like 2 pages.

No, it doesn't have finesse. It's a freaking demon!

So yes, it's stunned as well now.

[Cyroa]

Who's next? I think Grim? Heritage said something about posting but if not posted by tonight, I'll be skipping Grim and moving on... Other PCs should go if they haven't; otherwise it'll be demons turn and start of new round....

[quotemyname]

Just to double check, the initiative order is:

• 
  24 - Jack
  18 - Colt
  14 - Blink
  13 - Grim
  11 - Razorwing
  10 - All-Star
  9 - Demons

yeah?

Currently on Grim.

[Heritage]

Rolled a 26 to hit, DC is 23/ Toughness

[Cyroa]

toughness (1d20:20+10=30)

heh heh Nothing for the faerie! (would have liked to save that roll for an attack though...)

[Cyroa]

24 - Jack

18 - Colt

14 - Blink

13 - Grim

11 - Razorwing

10 - All-Star

9 - Demons

So Razorwing and All-Star.... you're up!