Return with a new power

[Nightshyft]

Hey there....I have returned after a long absence. After some serious overhauls upon my computer, I am able log back on FC PBP. Since that time, alot of things have changed apparently. Looking forward to rediscovering the fun that can be had here.

Now, that I have returned, I was wondering a few things. One I am hoping to retool and OLD villain who never got any true play time into a hero and TWO, I was wondering if you guys would help me build an unusual power. The Power is what I call Shadow Diving. ORIGINALLY, I built it as Transmit Shadow X, but that fails in my eyes to accurately describe it's function. Maybe others here can chime in on how they would do this....

In a nutshell, Shadow Diving allows the Character(Shadowjak) to meld into a TARGET'S shadow and become that shadow. While AS the shadow, Shadowjak can travel at that target's speed as long as the shadow's caster actually moves. Sounds easy enough, and at first glance it fit's Transmit Shadow. But, Transmit Shadow is INSTANTANEOUS transition between shadows. Not a prolonged travel ability. I had built a power framework myself that used the Meld function from possession(a +1 power) that was in the breakdown in Masterminds Manual, Added in Speed(+1) for the aqquired speed that accrues with rank, denoting a limit to the speed(using the Time/Value Table....excessing the limit forces the Shadow Diver OUT of the Shadow), and I added another +1 to represent the Concealment factor of the ability, giving the the power Shadow Diving a +3/Rank cost. results are a concealed, Intangible means of transportation that is limited by target's speed and direction. Feats added to this was Shadow Puppetry(ability to alter and move the shadow, make it any shape and giving it life while the Shadow Diver possesses it....no affect on corpreal), and Shadow Jump(tranfer from one shadow to another as long as the two intersect). Extras were Shadow Trap(+1), Effectively the Attack Portion of Dimensional Pocket and Shadow Bind(+1) Snare using the target's shadow to hold him.

After some consideration though, Both Shadow Trap and Shadow Bind could be better represented as Alternate Powers. However, opinion on the base power would be appreciated. I always have the optin of reverting BACK to Transmit Shadow, but would prefer to see if anyone has a better idea/build.

Thanks

[quotemyname]

Oh my... What the hell. I have a few minutes before class...

*Cracks knuckles*

That's quite a power your dreaming up there. However I think you might be going about it the hard way (though not necessarily the wrong way).

When I build custom powers I always start with a base effect. Usually using whatever the main effect of the power is. From there, if I want it to do anything else I stack on extras that help model that. If I desire the power to also achieve other different aspects at the same time, I link it to other powers.

So I'm just going to simplify and outline a few of what I think are the features your looking for (and some of my questions about them) in this power and then go from there.

1. Meld with another's shadow

2. Travel wherever the shadow does, matching its speed. (Can it travel HOWEVER the shadow does? eg If the originator of the shadow flies, can Shadow Diver?)

3. Be concealed in the shadows (or insubstantial? or both?)

I think that sounds like a decent base power.

(Possible) Alternate Powers: (or the effects thereof)

1. Travel between two intersecting shadows

2. Suck the target into their own shadow

3. Pin the target to the location of the shadow

Now that I have a clear list of ideas to run with, I'll start to break this power down and come back to you with what I've got.

My initial thoughts:

Maybe some sort of Transform power? (I'm not too familiar with this power offhand so I'll avoid this if possible). (linked to) Possibly using Adaptation (as a move/free/reaction? limited to travel powers, limited to the speed of the host shadow). (linked to) Concealment (vs. hearing, etc. but not visual. Maybe some blending there or something.) or Insubstantial or both.

That's just the base power. Now, I would like to use adaptation because that seems like it would get you what you want. (whatever movement power the subject has, because even when someone flies they cast a shadow, it's a really broad one, but it's still there at least during the day). However, you can't have a Variable Power in an Array so I'm going to try to find a way around this. Maybe just make it a high ranked speed limited to the number of ranks a target has in movement powers. Then if they have a higher speed than your max, you might just get "kicked out" or something, but we can cover that later.

I would also like to possibly build the ability to jump between shadows as part of the main power. After I listed it as an AP I thought of the example where you would want to hide in a wall shadow until someone came by and their shadow intersected yours and then you could follow them. Fortunately this would be easy to add to the main power as yet another linked power (I love linked powers btw).

Tack on Teleport 1 (Extras: Action/Free; Flaws: Medium [shadows], Limited to intersecting shadows). Since the Transmit effect is just Teleport with the medium flaw anyway, this is easier to calculate.

Thoughts on AP's (if we don't decide on a VP)

Suck the target into their own shadow. Ignoring the obvious paradox that happens when your shadow's subject stops existing...*waves hand through air*. You were originally basing this on the attack extra of the Dimensional Pocket power. The judges on this site have previously said no to this on numerous occasions because it is too similar to the Teleport Attack extra. So that initial function is probably not going to be allowed (but it was a good idea!). I would skip this one for now. If you can't suck them into the shadow, the point is kind of moot.

But maybe you can keep them trapped there. A few initial thoughts on this. Enhanced Super Strength (Limited to Grapple)? Snare X (Flaws: Range/Touch)?

What do you think of these definitions / ideas?

Woh! Almost forgot about class! *runs*

[quotemyname]

Congratulations (and thank you, I think) you have succeeded in completely distracting me from the work I should be doing.

Anyways, while in class I had some time to think more about this.

To my initial thoughts on transform, I am going to say no. First of all, Transform is just Morph with the Ranged and [Affects Others/Attack] extras (not sure which one applies for that second one). Looking at Morph, I still say no. Since with the subtle application of a single power feat, Morph essentially allows you to have multiple character sheets, I am inclined to avoid this power altogether as a rule. Compound this with the fact that I don't think Morph is what you're looking for, and I think I've come to a solid conclusion that Morph is out.

I do have good news, though. I drummed up something I think you can use. I'll assume this is for a PL10 character with no trade offs.

Array 18.5 ("Stalker Array"; 37pp powers; 2 Alternate Powers) [39pp]

Insubstantial 4 (Weak against fire*; Extras: Linked to Concealment [+0], Linked to Teleport [+0]) {20pp}

Linked: Concealment 5 (Visual, Hearing, Tactile, Scent; Flaws: Blending [-1], Limited to while in Shadows [-1]) {3pp}

Linked: Teleport 20 (Extras: Accurate [+1]; Flaws: Medium [shadows; -1], Limited to re-entering current host shadow [-2**]; PF: Change Velocity, Change Direction, Subtle, Triggered [When current host of shadow moves]) {14pp}

*Or some other Common Descriptor from this list

**Not sure whether this is a -1 or -2 modifier, but I'm hoping for -2 since this power is expensive!

For a grand total of 37pp as an individual power. If you were to wrap it up with the following two Alternate powers, the array in total would cost 39pp.

AP 1: Insubstantial 4 (Weak against fire*; Extras: Linked to Concealment [+0], Linked to Teleport [+0]) {20pp}

Linked: Concealment 5 (Visual, Hearing, Tactile, Scent; Flaws: Blending [-1], Limited to while in Shadows [-1]) {3pp}

Linked: Snare 10 (Extras: Affects Corporeal[+1]; Flaws: Range/Touch [-1], Limited to Host of Current Shadow [-1]; PF: Obscure Senses 2 [Visual], Subtle) {13pp}

AP 2: Insubstantial 4 (Weak against fire*; Extras: Linked to Concealment [+0], Linked to Teleport [+0]) {20pp}

Linked: Concealment 5 (Visual, Hearing, Tactile, Scent; Flaws: Blending [-1], Limited to while in Shadows [-1]) {3pp}

Linked: Strike 10 ("Shadow Strike"; Extras: Affects Corporeal; Flaws: Limited to Host of Current Shadow [-1]; PF: Subtle) {11pp}

---

So basically what we have here is: You "Jump" into someone's shadow using some sort of transmit power which falls outside this array. Once there, you are Insubstantial and Concealed (a nasty combo), and you can "follow" them wherever they go, as long as you take a move action every turn to set the trigger on your teleport to "when they move, I move." With Teleport 20, there are few characters that would be able to get away from this. This also assumes that you have some sort of solid surface to stand on when its not your turn. The only way this would work while following a flying character for instance is if they were casting a shadow on the ground. The power feats allow you to follow them if they stop or change direction, and subtle makes it possible to do so sneakily.

The AP's: In the first one I have mimicked the Insubstantial and Concealment effects because they are the basis of the power. I just tacked something different on in place of the Teleport. The first is Snare with affects Corporeal so that you can tie down solid characters. The other one is just your simple strike with affects corporeal so you can actually affect other targets.

Hope this helps!

[angrydurf]

All senses concealment is concealment 10, other than that it seems to do what he wants but it does seem overly complex way to go about it. Of course this relitively siple power is rather difficult to find an analog in M&M so it might be the best option.

Ok giving this some more thought I think dimensional pocket might be the way to go. If you add Limmited: Only exit/interact through same Shadow entered and Limited: Medium(Shadows) add dimensional to it so you can use the attack from "the other side" to pull people into the shadow when it comes in contact with them. Then you can AP some other attacks off that base effect. However if those attacks are while in the Shadow realm it starts to run into the bathroom mentalist territory. Generally being able to attack from what is effectively complete safety is a no-no. In that regard the concealment Insubstantial might work better as then with counters concealment and affects insubstantial you can still be attacked but even that woudl be a bit much honestly.

If all you want to do is the jump in thier shadow and ride along thing then it can be done with dimensional movement 1 (personal shadow dimension) Limited: Medium(shadow), Limited: exit same shadow only for a grand total of 1/2 a point rounded up to 1 PP. Then you have to pop back out to actually attack at all.

Attacks that emminate while you are in the safety of the shadow are not likely to be approved though.

[quotemyname]

All senses concealment is concealment 10, other than that it seems to do what he wants but it does seem overly complex way to go about it. Of course this relitively siple power is rather difficult to find an analog in M&M so it might be the best option.

Right you are! I changed "All senses" to "Visual, Hearing, Tactile, Scent". Full concealment from all types is a bit much. Insubstantial aside.

To tell you the truth I didn't even think about the bathroom mentalist ramifications of this power. But you're correct. Even though I built the power without thinking about that half of the issue, it does seem to avoid it. The character would still be plenty vulnerable, though oddly difficult to get to.

You're dimensional movement option intrigues me. It certainly seems like a very cheap way of doing exactly what I was trying to do. (Though not being able to attack from the other dimension would cause problems).

This idea truly was a gem.

[angrydurf]

Well adding the dimensional extra (Power Feat?) I believe takes care of that barring the bathroom mentalist (Dimentionalist?) ramifacations of the power. (of course that also requires dimensional accurate senses)

[quotemyname]

Right, but that's exactly my point. Where do you draw the line between bathroom mentalist and Dimensionalist? What constitutes your character as "being able to fight while at little to no risk"?

If you ask me, even my power might be crossing the line. It's expensive... but Insub AND concealment? That's pretty damn tough to beat, unless your designed to beat it.

[Nightshyft]

wow...two very different ways. The Dimensional one has been mentioned before....but I see several issues with it's implications.

One: Dimensional Movement is very unbalanced in it's cost for what it does. Effectively an " I am not here, you cannot hurt me" power. While that is fantastic, it also grants TOO much for too little.

Two: there is no "travel" portion of the power. In a sense, it is a reversion to Transmit: Shadow in that it is an instantaneous thing. I pop in the shadow and magically pop out at the location. I know that this is simply semantics and effects in question...and that is shouldn't matter. BUT, if I accepted that, then I would have utilized Transmit Shadow and been done with it.

Quotemyname: Wow....

Again, this gets nasty. For the most part, again it reverts to Transmit Shadows. A MUCH more costly version at that due to the added in Insubstantial and Concealment(Which I feel are correct for the record).

Which brings me to a revalation....Teleport in general.

IT is instantaneous in from going from point A to point B. Everyone gets that point. It is an understandable thing and more importantly an accepted thing. Now, what we MISS in this is simply this....the Teleporter is BOTH Insubstantial and Concealed while traveling, ableit for such a small fraction of time that it warrants no cost adjustment.

My Shadow Diving SLOWS Teleport down and adds in a limitation on SPEED instead of a limitation on Distance(switching the limiters). Traditionally, this is a FLAW. BUT, upon slowing Teleport down we REdiscover the hidden benefits of Insubstantial and Concealment, thus find that instead of the cost reducing, it actually increases!

This is How I build the Power when limited to Transmit Shadow:

Transmit Shadow 6 w/ Change Direction, Easy, Subtle 2, and Turnabout(11pp)

That allows for a silent teleporter that rises out of target's shadow and attacks, then fades BACK into the shadow to disappear. However, it is again, instantaneous and fails in flavor.

Transmit Shadow 6 w/ Changed Limiter: Speed for Distance(+0), Insubstantial 1(it cannot go through solid objects, just clear objects...again a switch of limiters)(+1), and Concealment Blending/Shadow(Sight, Hearing, and Scent)(+1)....Feats Change Direction, Easy, and Turnabout(21pp)

That is a breakdown of what I see....this power all came about from Masterminds Manual after reading the power breakdowns. Possession has the MELDING power block....it has no clear discriptors except this, it allows character to BECOME one with Target...effectively merge with it's composition. And the crazy thing is listed as a +1 power. It offers no control or influence over the target. That comes from the Mind Control portion of Possession.. Insubstantial 1 and the Blending are essentiallay what this is...I think?

Some Other Clarifications....NO Shadow means that the character is expeled into corporeal. Exceeding the Speed limiter Expels the Character into the Corporeal...

This power has been haunting me ever sense MaMa came out....Unlimited Power added in Transmit Shadow to further clarify it. And recent powers in Mecha and Manga have also gave me some other APs to add in if I can get it floating. It is a monster of a power that is really not a direct combat power(which is where most of the power issues start)...

OH, QMN....the second AP is actually nothing I was considering. The Dimensional Pocket attack effectively removes the target from the combat(Dimensional Pocket is insanely powerful in that use, clearly overlooked by many). Instead of Strike, it would be Teleport with Attack Extra. And Teleport 20....you realize that it would either represent the distance to the moon or if used as a speed modifier, the speed of light?

Does any of my build make sense, or am I looking TOO far into things?

[quotemyname]

Well, first off, it is a little difficult for me to decode the powers you've built because they are so different from the formatting I use to build mine. Almost like reading someone else's code when programming.

So I don't really understand those powers you've laid down, but from your description, at least, it sounds like you are over thinking things, yes.

And it's not that we're ignoring the dimensional pocket as an attack, we know it exists. The judges here just don't like it, so that's why you won't see it. Both Phantom and Fleur tried a version of that power IIRC and were both said no to.

[Nightshyft]

I can understand the difficulty in reading someone elses power blocks...I suffer the same at times.

Dimensional Pocket Attack...I can fully understand that and I am good with that decision.

After some long deliberation last night at work, I have concluded that I might as well stick with the orginal build of Transmit Shadow X. It is the simplest and most easily recognized of formats for something of this nature.

That being said, Thanks guys for your suggestions and help. I truly appreciate it

Soon, I will submit a character for approval using the approved format for the character sheet here....maybe then my power intentions will be clear.

Thanks again.

[angrydurf]

Just a quick note. Dimensional pocket (which is dimensional movement with the attack extra basically) is allowed the Refs just want it kept low enough ranked that you generally need to disable or restrain the target before you can really use it.

Fluer builds up enough snares to immobalixe the guy then uses it and Phantom generally stuns or more often just KO's th etarget first. Its more fro use as a prison than a real attack.

It seems like transmit shadow is more what you are looking for. Dimensional movement isn't really undercosted as you can't even pervieve this dimension whne shifted without aditional powers no less effect it. You can add the dimensional extra to a bunch of powers and ESP or a super sense to be able to function from the other dimension and that is certainly very powerfull (effectively the bathroom mentalist issue I raised above) any form of attack that allows you to attack without being at risk is frowned upon.

Another option is the Insubstantial/Concealment arangement above linked to some kind of limited Mimic (Travel powers only, Instant duration and reaction or free action) Basically set up to be that you can mimic thier travel power but have to stay with them in order to maintain it, or in fact reactivate it every round)