Character Age Issues

[playah]

The problem is as follows- I have a character concept that IMO would work pretty well here (again, just IMO) and worked well in comics for years, but for some reason people seemed enraged of it.

The idea is simple- make a magical girl in a superhero setting. Im not talking about a wishy-washy copy of Sailor Moon, Tokyo Mew Mew or crap like Wedding Peach that coats everything in sugar and has "Love Love Strawberry Beams" with sparkles (Im not an idiot). The general idea is to mix two titles:

-Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha: Or as I'd like to call it "what if magical girls were made for adults, had a good story, compelling characters and serious plotlines". I was stunned just how great it works and TV Tropes agrees with me.

-Shazam!: A young person turns into adult and becomes a great superhero. Everyone knows it, nobody has problems with it.

So, why is (almost) everyone here against? I havent heard a single good argument against it, aside from "Its against the rules", which alone is enough to overthrow EVERYTHING and ANYTHING I'll say, but let me be honest- that rule is stupid. No offense to those who made it- I heard the reasons and arguments against it and I do realize its for our own good, but isnt that too much? Aside from "Rules are rules", the only arguments I heard were:

-beating up kids is squicky- yes it is. Which is why I have a character that turns into adult women, they get beaten up all the times. Besides, there were a lot of great kid heroes that took beating and it wasnt considered squicky- Power Pack (Im refering to Marvel Adventures line, not 616) , few Robins (including the current), Molly Hayes of Runaways and more (granted, there werent many of them, but they existed)

-young sex scenes are a no-no - well, duh, Im not going there. Im not stupid enough to try having my 12 year old have sex with people, not even in her adult form. Hell, one of the running gags would be her getting squicky when people flirt with her to her disgust)

-other heroes wont accept someone so young - so? There are plenty characters that werent accepted by their peers for any reason, that didnt stop them from being heroes. Stephanie Brown (Spoiler) was constantly turned down but never gave up (granted, she was above 16, but thats not my point). Makes for a good story.

And thats about all the arguments I heard that makes sense. For the record, here are some rough ideas of how I saw it:

-she's a child prodigy, wise and smart beyond her age. When talking to her adult form, you'll have hard times figuring out her actual age

-sex is wrong, if anyone old tried to hit on her, she'll reject immediatly and feel disgusted over it. If its a person she can trust, she might tell the truth, but only if she thinks they'll accept it. Either way, she'll avoid it on her own.

-despite being smart, she's not a smartass and will look for guidance, a team or older mentor

-yes, she does realize she's too young for this, but it wont stop her. You know, "power and responsibility" and doing whats right above personal gains

-her parents dont know it, and really- why would she tell them? So they could ground her forever?

In other words, I know what Im doing, or at least Im pretty sure I do. I dont want to start a war, I dont want to make enemies and all said and done, Im here to have fun, but not at a cost of being a dick. In case you wanna ask- no, raising her age will completely miss the point and I'd rather make someone else and pity your limited imagination (no offense meant). Im asking for this rule to include a "In special case only" part, which Im aiming at.

(14:21:22) Moira: Still, if i were you, i'd bump that up to 16, i really dont see a 12 year old getting accepted

(14:21:32) Ecalsneerg: Nope

(14:21:46) playah: accepted as a team member or character in general?

(14:21:54) Moira: in general

(14:22:01) playah: why?

(14:22:02) Ecalsneerg: Quark was 14 when he got approved, and we've said now that we wouldn't approve someone that young

(14:22:19) playah: ever heard of Billy Batson?

(14:22:33) Moira: yeah, he's grown up a little 

(14:22:46) playah: yeah, now he's like, 10

(14:22:47) Ecalsneerg: Yep, he's a teenager in current comics

(14:22:58) Ecalsneerg: Wait, he got de-aged?

(14:23:16) playah: really? Back in Young Justice he seemed like a 10 year old, and that wasnt far away

(14:23:23) Moira: last i heard he was 16

(14:23:32) playah: details

(14:23:42) Moira: Young Justice was YEARS ago 

(14:24:05) playah: quiet, I still want to think its alive

(14:24:29) playah: and WHY exactly dont you (as a site) want a younger heroes?

(14:24:35) Ecalsneerg: I'm not sure

(14:24:52) Ecalsneerg: Because adult supervillains beating up 10-year-olds is squicky?

(14:25:22) Ecalsneerg: That might be it, it got ruled prior to me getting a green name

(14:25:26) playah: I dunno, I like Power Pack, and they get beaten up all the time

(14:26:10) playah: besides, everyone on this site has a level 0 immortality, so I dont see a problem here

(14:26:24) Moira: it got ruled after two guys basically RPed their 14 year olds having sex

(14:26:41) playah: and why would I want to engage her in sex?

(14:26:50) Ecalsneerg: ... ah, that's why. Thank you mental block!

(14:27:03) Ecalsneerg: playah, we didn't think that of those players

(14:27:14) Ecalsneerg: Then Shaen walked in. And it was hilarious

(14:27:34) playah: so, becouse two guys were idiots, you limited ideas for characters?

(14:28:05) Ecalsneerg: "Be legal in most states" is hardly a limit

(14:28:20) playah: dude, this isnt a porn site

(14:28:39) Ecalsneerg: Legal adult =/= age of consent 

(14:29:05) Ecalsneerg reminds you he doesn't use the American phrasing

(14:29:11) playah: you do realize that mainstream comic books have a strong tradition of underage heroes and sidekicks?

(14:29:40) Ecalsneerg: Most of the Teen Titans are 16

(14:29:53) playah: could've foold me

(14:30:00) Moira: Starfire is far faaar away from 16 

(14:30:20) Moira: who are the titans these days?

(14:30:23) Ecalsneerg: playah, they're drawn younger because people are stupid

(14:30:30) playah: Starfire and Raven looked like hot moms when they were introduced

(14:30:33) Ecalsneerg: "Teenagers? Taller than adults? UNPOSSIBLE"

(14:31:03) Ecalsneerg: playah, it's a lot more noticeable when they cross over with other titles

(14:31:10) Ecalsneerg: They're all scrawny midgets

(14:31:28) playah: all said, I still dont understand why I cant make a character like that, aside from sexual scenes (which I wont do becouse Im no idiot)

(14:31:30) Moira: 

Aquagirl

Beast Boy

Blue Beetle

Bombshell

Kid Flash

Miss Martian

Raven

Static

Superboy

Wonder Girl

(14:31:39) Moira: these are the titans at the moment

(14:31:50) Moira: are any of them younger than 16?

(14:31:54) Ecalsneerg: playah, is it so wrong for us to say "We don't want kids getting beaten up?"

(14:32:12) playah: no, it isnt

(14:32:34) playah: but Im not making a "regular" child

(14:33:02) Ecalsneerg: Well, duh?

(14:33:10) Ecalsneerg: It's a superhero site. Noone is regular

(14:33:37) playah: Im making a girl who turns into adult (to hide identity) with superpowers

(14:34:27) playah: we also dont want to see women getting beaten, and yet look how many are there

(14:34:55) Ecalsneerg: playah, that's different

(14:35:09) playah: yeah, yeah, women's rights and stuff

(14:35:20) Ecalsneerg: Well, look at it this way

(14:35:26) Ecalsneerg: Women can get in the military

(14:35:30) Ecalsneerg: 12 year olds can't

(14:36:00) playah: Military =/= superheroes

(14:36:27) Ecalsneerg: Ok then, police force 

(14:36:35) playah: sigh...

(14:37:10) playah: nothing you say will convince me, so I'll just sumbit the character when its done and see if its accepted

(14:37:34) Ecalsneerg: No offence, but I don't need to convince you

(14:37:46) Ecalsneerg: I just do it out of politeness

(14:37:54) playah: Ik now

(14:38:09) playah: Im not offended

(14:38:28) Ecalsneerg: Seriously, why does she need to be younger than 16?

(14:38:51) playah: nope, the whole point of the character is that she IS young

(14:39:10) Ecalsneerg: 16 is young

(14:39:29) playah: its like saying "You know what, Batman is cool, but you know what would be better? If his parents were alive!"

(14:39:54) Ecalsneerg: So... pre-Identity Crisis Tim Drake?

(14:40:04) playah: if that wont get accepted, then I might as well just make someone else

(14:40:27) playah: yeah, Tim Drake, as in my favourite DC character (but I digress)

(14:40:39) Ecalsneerg: Why is 16 too old?

(14:41:07) Moira: you know who else was that young? Dick Grayson, Age Twelve from ASBAR

(14:41:27) playah: becouse there are tons of characters that are 16 and nobody seems to mind them becouse, well, nobody does

(14:41:40) Moira: You must add "Age Twelve" when refering to Dick Grayson from that series 

(14:41:47) Ecalsneerg: I was 17 when I joined the site

(14:41:52) Ecalsneerg: Not 13

(14:42:07) playah: so?

(14:42:50) Ecalsneerg: The playerbase see no issue with 16 rather than 12 because 16 is about the lowest age in the playerbase

(14:43:04) playah: the whole point is that she first appears as adult, everyone accepts her and thinks she's okay, but then she reveals her secret and everyone is like "Holy crap, she's 12? Didnt see that coming!"

(14:43:23) Ecalsneerg: Then phone child services 

(14:43:38) playah: you dont get that reaction if she's 16, becouse Claremont is made out of those guys

(14:44:02) Ecalsneerg: And 16 is when you are considered to no longer need a legal guardian

(14:44:19) playah: never said I wont need a legal guardian

(14:44:45) Moira: How old does she look when she transforms?

(14:45:04) playah: middle 20's

(14:45:37) Ecalsneerg: I still can't believe you consider 12 comparable to 16

(14:45:49) playah: its not comparable

(14:45:53) Ecalsneerg: That 4 year difference is massive at that age

(14:45:59) Moira: Maybe they grow em different over there?

(14:46:01) Moira: 

(14:46:08) playah: she's just wise beyond her age

(14:46:09) Ecalsneerg: No, you are comparing them

(14:46:25) Ecalsneerg: (13:43:38) playah: you dont get that reaction if she's 16, becouse Claremont is made out of those guys

(14:46:47) Ecalsneerg: And even upbeat, optimistic people like Jack of all Blades think  16 is way too young in-setting

(14:48:08) playah: so?

(14:48:49) Ecalsneerg: So, people will still go "duh-wha'?"

(14:49:19) playah: Im exactly expecting a "You're 12? Thats cool, lets team-up anyway"

(14:50:00) Ecalsneerg: "You're 12, yet out fighting crime on your own? God, your mother is a piece of irresponsible trash"

(14:50:08) playah: and I still havent heard any good arguments against aside from "This is our site's rules"

(14:50:21) playah: "She doesnt know that."

(14:50:44) Moira: ifi do admit, it does sound kind of coolfor a self contained story

(14:50:45) Ecalsneerg: No, they are valid points

(14:50:55) Ecalsneerg: You just dislike  them because it goes against your idea

(14:51:03) Moira: heck, even an NPC

(14:51:20) Ecalsneerg: "Kids getting beaten up isn't fun" is a valid point, whether you respect it or not

(14:51:23) playah: yes, I do like this idea, hence why Im giving it my last characte slot

(14:51:58) playah: and Im brining up Billy Batson as an example becouse he works

(14:52:14) playah: and has worked for years, even before he grew into a teenager

(14:52:50) Ecalsneerg: Our Billy Batson expy was in his 80s and turned into a younger man 

(14:53:02) playah: cool, but no thanks

(14:53:03) Ecalsneerg: Wolverine eviscerating people with claws has sold comics for years

(14:53:13) Moira: I forgot about Captain Wonder1

(14:53:17) Ecalsneerg: "It happened in comics" is not an argument in and of itself

(14:53:48) Moira makes a note to reference him sometime

(14:53:50) playah: then how about "It happened in JLU, which is considered kid friendly and overall liked and accepted" ?

(14:54:02) Moira: Think they'd sell Captain Wonder tshirts?

(14:54:13) Ecalsneerg: Moira, yes

(14:54:16) playah: and in Batman Brave and Bold

(14:54:25) Ecalsneerg: JLU? Kid friendly? LOLWHAT?

(14:54:40) Ecalsneerg: It's kid friendly in that your kid shouldn't understand 90% of the jokes

(14:55:19) Moira: (szept) Hey, if you want, you can throw your arguement on the character building forum for everone to discuss 

(14:55:33) playah: (szept do Moira) I might do

(14:55:46) playah: and thats wrong?

(14:55:56) Moira: (szept) present your case and ask for opinions

(14:56:10) Ecalsneerg: Notice also that, in JLU, he was in one episode, ("(13:50:44) Moira: ifi do admit, it does sound kind of coolfor a self contained story"), and left the League due to not fitting in with its moral standards

(14:56:38) Moira: That's what i was semi-refering to 

(14:57:17) playah: besides, why did you reference Wolverine?

(14:57:35) Ecalsneerg: As something in comics considered inappropriate for here

(14:57:39) Moira: Wolverin is the Hitler of comic conversations

(14:57:46) Moira: Wolverine Eats Sugar

(14:58:23) playah: Boys, Kick-Ass and Watchmen is popular as well, but what does it have to do with Captain Marvel?

[angrydurf]

Ok you're running up against three problems with that concept actually some are fair some are just our knee jerk reactions to the horrible things that have been done before, some are in between.

Problem One is her age. We do have a rule keeping the minimum age to 16 (as mentioned quark was approved older and many of us feel that may have been in error). This rule is definitely limiting but it is there for a reason. The core reasons are those that have been pointed out to you. Squick over hitting kids, as well as over underage sex that as you heard did sneak in even with the rule in place. You of course have ways around this and wouldn't do this. However we can't know that and unfortunately due to other peoples actions we find that its safer for us just to disallow this whole category of heroes rather than risk it. Its not about you per se but a general case so that we don't get into "But player X got too." whining. Also as this is the internet there are assumptions made by the general populace when people are playing young characters that we don't want the site associated with. Really its risk management and thats why we are unlikely to make an exception.

Secondly Anime reactionism. Its not fair at all but mention an anime/manga concept and the majority of players/refs roll their eyes stick their noses in the air thinking "Oh one of 'those' kinds of characters." Anime has plenty of perfectly valid concepts to mine for western comics but all to often the fans try to play a straight up anime character and it just doesn't work in the FC verse. Just leaving it as Captain Marvel but a girl would have probably gotten you further.

Lastly, and this was covered somewhat, We had a bad experience. Even with our limitations we had some people play with some exceptionally wrong ideas in the chatroom and that has left us over cautious.

Just a little further explanation. I'll add the confrontational attitude of your post doesn't help your case much either ;)

[playah]

Sigh, again with the anime stuff... I said magical girl becouse it fits the concept. Maybe If I said "A girl who turns into a women with magical powers, kinda like Billy Batson" would be better, but if something has a name, I use it.

Anyway, I dont feel like arguing anymore, so I give up and save my idea for some other game. You may close this thread, I have ntohing else to say.

[N/A]

Our collective instinctual aversion to anime/manga concepts is not entirely rational or fair. We acknowledge this. We can, and do, listen to reason.

However, because we haven't published all of our "findings" publicly, most players (especially new players) underestimate just how much of a problem this has been for us. I'm not saying that you fall into this demographic, but once we've either done some digging, given them some time, or both, the players here who have begged and pleaded for us to let them play 10-14 year-olds and the players who have begged and pleaded for us to let them play anime/manga-inspired concepts (there's a near 100% crossover between those two groups) have also, more often than not, turned out to be disgusting perverts. Seriously - more often than not. So you can't blame us for being a little apprehensive.

Yes, if you'd advertised it as "Captain Marvel," we probably wouldn't have the same kneejerk reaction. No one on this site who ever submitted a Captain Marvel Expy has been caught cybering in the chatroom as their 14-year-old characters. No one who ever submitted a Captain Marvel Expy hosted softcore hentai porn pics on the same publicly-accessible Photobucket account they use to host their character pics. No one on this site who ever submitted a Captain Marvel Expy ever had this abomination on the same publicly-accessible Photobucket account they used to host their character pics. The majority of players on this site who have even so much as used anime/manga art as their character pics can't make the same claim.

The source material is also a factor. Western superhero comics are a separate genre from those found in anime/manga. It's a very inclusive genre, but a separate one. A lot of anime/manga concepts just aren't compatible with, or appropriate to, our setting. So again, we have reservations.

The simple fact is, we do not feel the need to accomodate anime/manga fans on our Western superhero comics site. We don't think that's unreasonable.

That all being said, I think a "magical girl" is (potentially) one of the more benign anime/manga archetypes, and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to you playing one. However, I don't see a reason why the kid has to be 10. I can think of a couple magical girl series off the top of my head where the lead character was at least in high school, even pre-transformation.

Yes, Western superhero comics had a long tradition of 10-12 year-old kid sidekicks at one point. In the Golden Age. At two points (the Golden Age and the Iron Age), they also had a long tradition of the superheroes routinely killing the villains. We don't adhere to every single trope that's ever passed through this genre.