Move Object vs. Water Control

[Ozob]

So after the discussions in chat last night, I went back and tried my hand at doing my powers from UP... the first half. I came up with several questions on how and why to do something, particularly with element control.

So the underlying power in Move Object. I get that part.

However, why would I not take:

Move Object, -1 Limited to Water for 1 pt/rank

As opposed to

Water Control, 2 pts/rank

Don't both do the same thing, allow me to move water? Why is the second 2x the cost of the first?

Finally, if I take the damaging extra from Move Object, it seems to indicate that I could use it to make ranged strikes. Would that mean that I don't need to take a "blast" power if I wanted to do that? If I have Move Object with some kind of area modifier, does that let me do an area damage effect as well?

Thanks for all the help so far. I have a lot worked out now on the character I want to try, just in the final parts where getting the last few bits in are a challenge.

[Supercape]

As far as I know the difference is:

Water Control is perception range: meaning you don't need "to hit" the water and its range is virtually unlimited (as long as you can accurately sense it, its in range), whilst Move Object limited to water is just "ranged".

Now, granted, water would normally be stationary and fairly easy to hit, but that is not always the case.

Remember Move Object is not "Telekenesis" as normally thought of, its more like a tractor beam - one which has "to hit". Telekenesis is move object with the Perception Extra, costing 3 PP/rank.

Now, the damaging extra from Move Object: that is not a damaging blast. Move Object allows you to throw an object around and grapple it at range. Without the damaging extra that still allows you to inflict damage by throwing what you are grappling (which damage both what you are grappling and what it is thrown into)... like a poltergeist. Its a bit fudged about how effective that might be for some of the element control powers.

Unlike normal, regular grapples (the physical ones), you cant actually inflict direct grappling damage on the thing you are grappling with your move object. For that, you need damage extra. This is a bit like telekenetically crushing something, if that makes sense? rather than gripping something telekentically and hurling into a wall.

However,

A more elegant solution, if you are a water controller, might be to get Water Control at 2PP/rank, and then buy an alternative power (Blast) for it, with the descriptor "Water blast", representing a concentrated jet of water you throw at your enemy (in this case, you would create the water out of nothing). There are various ways of refining this: requiring a source of water, making the blast indirect, etc. But it may work out a more elegant solution (and faster in game play) than using Water Control to damage people.

E:g, and I run this off the top of my head, and its not formatted properly.

Water Control 10 (Feats: Precise) [21 PP]

AP: Blast 10 (Limited: Requires Available water source. Feats: Indirect 3, Precise) [14 PP] "Water blast"

AP: Snare 10 (Limited: Requires Available water source. Feats: Indirect 3, Precise, Reversible) [15 PP] "Encase in Ice"

AP: Suffocate 10 (Limited: Requires Available water source. Feats: Indirect 3) [13 PP] "Bubble of water"

etc etc.

But there are all sorts of ways of doing this stuff.

[Ozob]

Okay, I can see not having to hit your water to be of some use... and the range is nice too. However, for the points I think I could live with that.

So if I set up something like this...

Array:

Move Object X: Limited to Water

Create Object X: Limited to Water

My move object also needs that object to exist. So one round to create water, then one round to move water. That would be doable, right? Or would the water from my create water disappear as soon as I change the array to something else?

Also going back to the move object power. If I can move say 10,000 tons of water, isn't that an area effect by default? That much water occupies an area. Or do I need to buy the area advantage to move large quantities of water?

Just want to make sure of all these things before I even try to format and submit anything.

[Supercape]

Well I am not a ref, but I will profer my opinion on that:

Firstly, Create object limited to water is likely not to fly. Inbuilt in create object is a descriptor about what you are actually creating: Ice, metal, stone, etc. Water is just one more descriptor. Various feats such as "Variable descriptor, precise" etc, would allow you to be more precise about materials you are building out of. The reason for this is that in practical terms, for what you use create object for (holding up a building, making a bridge, trapping somebody, etc), there really isn't much difference what the material is made of. Therefore "limited to one material" is not really a limitation.

Having said that, if you are limited to creating a liquid, rather than a kind of "solid" type water, that might fly as a limitation, at it does significantly impair the use of the power.

For create object stuff to actually properly "exist" it has to have the innate feat (see ultimate power). I think most people, for the purpose of this power, require that for the innate power to be bought create object must also have the continuous duration if it is in an array (Which is in an extra), but you would probably want a ref call on that.

If you dont get the innate feat (with continuous duration as above) you are right, it is sustained duration and as soon as you switch your array, the created object will not be maintained, and will go "poof".

As for the area affect, if you move 10,000 tons of water, that isn't an area effect mechanically, its still "single target". But yes, 10,000 tons of water is a lot of volume of water. So the answer I think is yes and no. Mechanically it is not area effect, but in terms of what you actually lift, it is still pragmatically a large volume of water. Buying the Area extra for Move Object is something, I think, that is generally thought of as a bit messy / difficult / to be avoided.

[Ozob]

Ouch... okay, that makes it a little harder. So I assume having a continuous effect in an array is a no no?

[Supercape]

I should really let the refs answer these questions. But having a continuous effect in an array is fine, as far as I am aware, including having a create object continuous duration innate power.

[Ecalsneerg]

Well, Continuous Create Object is an odd duck, in that unlike other Continuous powers, switching array slots doesn't get rid of the Created Objects. So we'd be a bit leery of it.

[angrydurf]

IIRC there is an extra you can get on Create object however that basically gives you move object only for what you have created. But I'd hhave to look that up to make sure I'm not misremembering.

*edit* Yea Moveable extra allows you to move your created stuff as if with an equivalent amount of move object.

Though really part of the question is to what end you want to move the stuff? What are you moving it to do? If you want to shape it into new walls or something similar you can just use the create object power again to create the new object and let the old one lapse with the descriptor of you are moving and reshaping it. If you want to create a water jet that's better represented by a trip or blast power. If you want to use the water to grab/move people or things you would use a regular move object with the descriptor of it being water doing the physical moving.

[Ecalsneerg]

Yeah, the +1 Moveable extra.

[Ozob]

Well what I am looking for is the following abilities:

* ability to summon a whole lot of water and make it stick around.

* ability to move that water to make waves, walls fountains, and the like

* potential to hurt someone with said water... AP?

* potential to hide behind said water... AP?

* various other powers that I'll take as APs

[angrydurf]

First is Continuous Inate Create object. Maybe with a Complication that without your concentration it is just water and will thusly flow away to wherever water would flow given terrain.

Second is just straight Create object with water as the medium

Third is a blast with water descriptor (Possibly linked to a trip power or knockback extra to represent people getting knocked over by said water)

Fourth is actually doable just with the standard create object mentioned above.

and so forth.

Basically Create object does not just create the substance it creates basic shapes out of the substance. Those shapes are maintained for the duration of the power at which point the shapes and their substance vanish. Continuous allows the shapes and substance to remain until you dismiss them or they are nullified, Innate means they can not be nullified. In both cases they unless dismissed or nullified standardly they retain both the substance and the shape. Just because your substance is a liquid does not mean you need an additional power to get it to retain its shape that is part of the core power and is in fact a possible Complication/drawback if losing concentration causes it to lose its shape. IE: You create a wall of water to protect some civilians from the terrible attacks of a villain. The Villain stuns you and the water collapses into a giant puddle allowing him to get at the civilians.

Though there is some flexibility and some GMs would allow water created to stick around as much as it would given terrain even without continuous as it's not holding shape any longer. Though thats a ref call as to how it would work here.

[Ozob]

See that's what I was looking for. I have no issue with it loosing shape after I stop concentrating. I just want it to be water still after the fact.

Example. Character sees a bunch of kids on scorching got day. Looking at a dip in the ground he rills it with cool refreshing water for them to play in. As he leaves the water vanishes with him and all the kids fall into the mid cursing his name eternally.

Example 2: character sees a man dying of thirst. He conjures up some water and let's him drink his fill. With no thanks needed he turns away only to have the man keel over and due because the water was not real.

I just need to know what combinations gets me there and the cost.

As for the others I think I can work them through with the advice given.

When I initially tried to make it work, I ended up able to fill a swimming pool each round if needed.

[angrydurf]

I would guess that your best option is a Continuous Innate Create object with a water descriptor. Then take a complication that your created objects lose cohesion (though the water remains) when you stop sustaining them. Refs MAY go for a low cost drawback for the same thing but you'd probably be better off getting the HP when your water wall goes splat due to stun then the extra PP at character creation.

[N/A]

Well what I am looking for is the following abilities:

* ability to summon a whole lot of water and make it stick around.

* ability to move that water to make waves, walls fountains, and the like

* potential to hurt someone with said water... AP?

* potential to hide behind said water... AP?

* various other powers that I'll take as APs

You guys are making this way, way more complicated than it needs to be. Just go with regular, default Sustained-duration Create Object. He makes stuff out of water he pulls from the area around him. If he stops sustaining the power, his constructs fall apart, and thanks to his Descriptors, a bunch of water drops on the ground. If there's no water reasonably nearby, or not enough of it, then the GM hits him with a Complication, either disallows the use of his powers or lowers their ranks, and gives him a Hero Point. Done. When he's just moving water around, use Move Object. When he's making domes and bridges and stuff out of "hard water," then use Create Object. There's no need to use one and then the other. When you build a power in this system, you look at the end result, build for that, then use Descriptors to explain how you got there. You're getting hung up on the details in a system that plays fast-&-loose with them.

Assuming a PL10 character with no tradeoffs, here's the array I would build. I'd probably leave some of these to power stunts, rather than buying every AP.

Water Control 16 (32PP Array, Feats: Alternate Power 6) [38PP]

• Base Power: Move Object 15 (STR 75 [Heavy Load: 400 tons], Extras: Range [Perception], Flaws: Limited [Water], Feats: Precise, Subtle) [32PP] (Move Water)
  
  Alternate Power: Blast 10 (Extras: Alternate Save [Fortitude], Feats: Indirect, Subtle) [32PP] (Dehydrate)
  
  Alternate Power: Blast 10 (Extras: Autofire, Feats: Indirect, Subtle) [32PP] (Torrent)
  
  Alternate Power: Create Object 10 (10 5ft cubes, STR 50 [Heavy Load: 12 tons], Toughness +10, 10 100ft Range Increments / 1,000ft Max Range, Extras: Movable, Feats: Indirect, Subtle) [32PP] (Hard Water, Move Stuff With Water, Shape Water)
  
  Alternate Power: Obscure 10 (Visual Senses, 1-mile radius, 1,000ft Max Range, Extras: Independent, Total Fade, Feats: Slow Fade 2 [5 minutes per PP, 1 hour 40 minutes total]) [32PP] (Fog, Vapor)
  
  Alternate Power: Snare 10 (Extras: Regenerating, Feats: Indirect, Subtle) [32PP] (Hard Water Bonds)
  
  Alternate Power: Transform 10 (Water, Extras: Duration [Continuous/Lasting], Range [Perception], Flaws: Action [Full], Distracting, Feats: Indirect, Subtle) [32PP]

DC Block:

ATTACK         RANGE         SAVE                        EFFECT

Dehydrate      Ranged        DC25 Fortitude (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Hard Water     Ranged        DC20 Reflex                 Trapped

  Dropped      Ranged        DC20 Reflex                 Avoided

                             DC25 Toughness              Damage (Physical)

  Thrown       Ranged        DC25 Toughness              Damage (Physical)

Move Water     Perception    Grapple check               Pinned/Bound

Shape Water    Perception    DC20 Fortitude (Staged)     Transformed

Snare          Ranged        DC20 Reflex (Staged)        Entangled/Bound

Torrent        Ranged        DC25* Toughness (Staged)    Damage (Physical)



*Up to DC30 with Autofire.

The one rank of the Indirect power feat allows him to manipulate water at a distance. Instead of the default mechanic, where the power originates directly from him, he can set the origin point at some other point in space in front of him. So, for example, he could cause a blast of water to erupt from a puddle on the ground somewhere between him and his enemy. This is particularly useful for bypassing transparent barriers.

I slapped Subtle on each power because I assumed that there is no glowing aura or other flashy effect to make it obvious that the water is being moved and that he's the one moving it.

The Create Object power is by far the most versatile. In addition to being able to throw up STR 50, Toughness 10 objects anywhere within range, and moving them around as if you had Move Object, you can also trap people in the objects, drop the objects on people for damage, and, since they're Movable, use them to pick up other objects and throw them for damage.

The Transform power is really only there so that he can mess up water elementals and similar creatures/constructs. Which it can, thoroughly.

[N/A]

Character sees a man dying of thirst. He conjures up some water and let's him drink his fill.

Either he gets plenty of water as a byproduct of the descriptors of his Create Object power (importing water from somewhere relatively nearby), or, if you really want to get specific, give him the following power:

Immunity 1 (Starvation/Thirst, Extras: Affects Others, Duration [sustained], Flaws: Limited [Thirst]) [1PP]

[Ozob]

Thanks Shaen, that really helps. It will take me a little time to get used to the effects based portion of the game. It seems backwards when building, but I understand the logic.