Fae Realms / Tuatha de Dannan

[Bishop]

So, I'm tinkering with a possible character, Mistweaver. Part of his background is a relationship to the Tuatha de Dannan and the Sidhe. There is already a character, Crow, with a similar relationship, so, cool. That could lead to some interesting interactions between the characters.

Well, I recently bought and read the Book of Magic which details the Fae Realm, and there is also an existing character, Changling, with a connection to that dimension. So, reading the book raised more questions for me than it answered. I haven't read all the past threads, which may hold the answers I'm looking for, so I apologize if this has already been worked out, though I did a search and couldn't find anything.

In this campaign, where do the Tuatha de Dannan live? Are they considered Fae (and the Seelie and Unseelie being factions of what I referred to as the Sidhe), or do they have their own divine dimension (like Asgard?) In working on Mistweaver, I was assuming, basically, a combination of the two: that they are divine entities like the Norse gods and that their descendants have become to be considered "faeries" over time. But that was primarily because a) that's how I personally view them and I didn't have the Book of Magic.

One possible answer that I think would work pretty well is that the Tuatha de Dannan are a particular house of Noble Seelie that invaded Ireland long ago and still has very close connection to humans. The Fae realm, in this view, is a very big place and they would be a small subset of the Seelie, but one that interacts with Earth-Prime a great deal to this day.

Another would be that the Tuatha de Dannan are the highest nobility of all the Fae Realm, but their descendants have split into two factions, Seelie and Unseelie, after their defeat by the Mileseans.

A third possibility is that it is a completely separate dimension, but that seems unsatisfactory.

The answer, I would think, would have a lot of impact on how these three characters interact with each other and with "non-fae-related outsiders," and how responses to threats to/from the Fae Realm are approached in general.

Another related question is: what descriptors should powers that come from the Tuatha de Dannan have? Just "magic?" Or should it also be considered "divine?" Or is it somehow in opposition to divine (like in D&D 4e) and considered "primordal?" With Mistweaver, I went with "magic, divine," but it doesn't really matter to me. (Though if the rowdy gods of Asgard are "divine," it seems the Tuatha should be, too). It just seems like it might have a lot of affect on how the relations between the mystic dimensions are viewed in the campaign.

[Darksider42]

There is some information about the Tuatha de Dannan in Freedoms Most Wanted (Page 17) about them and the FomorIans. Not a lot of info on what they have been up to during the time between the old stories and the present but they have gone the same route as the other gods and retreated to Avalon the same time The Pact was enacted and trying to keep the Fomorlans from entering the world. Seeing as they were affected by The Pact, I would assume they would count as gods themselves. Book of Magic Mentions the Realm of the Fey and the fey courts, but no info if Avalon and The Realm are the same thing.

[Bishop]

Yeah, I don't have Freedom's Most Wanted, but I do know that Avalon is a place in the Fae Realm according to Book of Magic (pg. 97).

[Aoiroo]

Bishop, I play Changeling, and I've discussed this with Heritage(who played a fae character in the past) and the answer to your questions are, anything you want.

Avalon in of itself is an alternate dimension where the fae reside and like Earth, there are multiple Avalons which fae can be defined. The Avalon Changeling comes from isn't based on mythology, it's based on Shakeshear along with the VERY vague guidelines set by the Book of Magic playbook. More or less, Changeling's Avalon is run by two courts who have open trade with other dimensions which reside other magical creatures like dwalves and elves. The Avalon there has regions which poorly mimic human era's in history based on the fancy of the court lord residing over that region. The one Etain is from resembles to an extent a Victorian Earth around 1890s or so thus her choice of clothing are articles she took with her. It also has a bit of part that time moves at a different pace in that Etain lived there for seventeen years, but a hundred and twenty eight years past since she was taken.

So in short, your character is a fae, and can fit all specifications of a fae without stepping on any previous game elements beforehand because it could just be a different Avalon.

Anyway, for your reference according to the Book of Magic, the fae realm had contact with Earth until the end of the Arthorian time (Arthor was real, so was Merlin, they both got help from the fae). When that all went to heck they withdrew. Fae are as far as I know, more or less subject to the Pact. The Pact is basically gods can't physically come to this realm unless invited, they'll sort of tear reality if they try. Mortals however can go back and forth all they want no problem, mortal avatars are really how the gods or fae most effectively try to make their mark on this world.

[Bishop]

Thank, Aoirooo, I guess that works. But, would that mean they come from different dimensions? There would be, then, an infinite number of Fae Realms each touching all of the infinite number of parallel Earths? It makes my head hurt.

That does make as much sense as anything else, but I was thinking maybe it was all one dimension, "The Fae Realm," that is very very big with lots of variety, Avalon being one small part of it, and maybe containing multiple "Avalons" or Avalon-like places, including places like Tir na nOg, the home of the Tuatha De. It may be nitpicking, I don't know, but it seems the answer could impact the use (and cost) of dimensional travel as well as having RP implications.

If someone had the "one dimension" version of dimension travel, for instance, and had it set to "Fae Realm," would they be able to go to all of our fae-related-fluff-background places? Or to only one of them? Or maybe none of them, since it would go to one unique to that character.

...or am I just thinking too much and should just roll with it and work it out if and when it ever actually comes up in play? If the answer is "yes, already!" that's cool. I can live with that. :)

[Aoiroo]

It's however you want to spin Bishop. The Avalon he comes from is probably part of a bigger fairy realm, but remember alternate worlds is a big running theme in our campaign, so really if your character's gonna travel to any different world via GM fiat dimensional travel powers aren't a requirement.

[Ecalsneerg]

Personally, what I'd go for is that yes, the Tuatha are fae deities, who live in one of the fae dimensions (I don't see why there has to be only one fae dimension, there's multiple underworlds and so such, and really, claiming Avalon, from British mythology, houses Irish myth... well, given the historical relationship between Ireland and Britain, I'm not going to be the guy advocating that sort of outright insensitively offensive idea). As for the magic/divine dichotomy... yes and no. Their average powers are probably divine, but their obviously magical aspects are magic too. So, obviously, the Morrigan has magic powers as well as divine ones, but Nuada probably hasn't got magic of which to speak, as he was a king and warrior, not a sorceror.

Also, dear god, DO NOT PUT THE TUATHA IN AVALON. That's putting Irish mythology as a facet of British mythology, and historically Britain has screwed over the Irish a lot. As Aoiroo points out, we have lots of alternate dimensions. Also, massively important thing, burn every urban fantasy book you have. The Tuatha don't have Seelie/Unseelie, Scots fae myth has Seelie/Unseelie. All myths are true in our game, but not all myths are the same thing. I really wouldn't advise portraying the Tuthas in-game as modern urban fantasy fae, as that... sort of defeats the entire point of incorporating Irish mythology.

[Bishop]

Also, dear god, DO NOT PUT THE TUATHA IN AVALON. That's putting Irish mythology as a facet of British mythology,

For folks saying I can do what I want, there sure are a lot of restrictions!

Just kidding! My suggestion was that Avalon and Tir na nOg were both part of the same dimension, not that they were the same place, though even that, I don't think, would be terrible. I don't think that would necessarily say Irish mythology is a facet of British, but could mean, rather, that they are both facets, descendants, of a largely, though not entirely, shared mythology, much of which is lost to time. There are Arthurian legends in the Mabinogion, so Arthur is arguably Welch. And there is a Welch counterpart to the Irish Lugh in Lleu Llaw Gyffes (though, personally, i think Lugh kicks much more butt than Lleu does). So, there are some tentative connections between Arthurian legends and Irish mythology. You go back far enough, they all are pretty intermixed. Saying all their fae came from the same general place is not much of a leap.

Bottom line is, if the ruling of the board came down that the place Irish legend calls Tir na nOg is now called "Avalon" by most people (in the FC world), I wouldn't find that offensive personally. I would find it unnecessarily specific and a bit chaffing, but I'd be able to go with it. I'm pretty flexible.

I really wouldn't advise portraying the Tuthas in-game as modern urban fantasy fae, as that... sort of defeats the entire point of incorporating Irish mythology.

I don't even know what modern urban fantasy is. But, if fitting my character into the game world required too many sacrifices of authenticity, I'd probably just scrap the concept rather than not do the Shining Ones justice. But, like I said, I feel I can be somewhat flexible. If, in FC, the Sidhe were called Seelie/Unseelie, for example, it's no skin off my nose. (Though, yes, I'd prefer "Sidhe," obviously.)

Hey, I'm good with: "go with what you want, since there are basically infinite dimensions." The upside to that approach is pretty clear: it's the ultimate in character creation flexibility. But, I do think there is a downside, too: that it tends to dilute the world. In this case, for instance, this means there is no THE Fae Realm. Each one is merely "a" Fae Realm. Either way has its pros and cons, so it's cool. It's just something I needed to get clear.