Constructive Criticism: Defiant (PL 10)

[Dragonsong]

Hey, all! I'm very eager to get writing on what looks to be a truly amazing site. Unfortunately, my understanding of the MnM rules is... limited. Coming from a DnD background, where your class is built for you, I ended up with a trainwreck of a first attempt. To prevent my fridge-stuffed mistakes from clogging up the character bank I'll post my new concept here.

I'm not terribly worried about whether the build is powerful or not, but I need a character that I can write as not getting his rear handed to him in every single thread as well as (obviously) one that's rules legal. Any advice anyone can provide is greatly appreciated. I hope to avoid the like of the memorable reminder that my mighty wizard could be grappled by "small woodland creatures" this time around.

I was flipping through the Freedom City book when I happened on an interesting tidbit about worlds in the Terminus dominated by Omega, their populations gradually processed into Omegadrones. Naturally I felt a need to make a rebel. My first character went overboard with the magic, so this time I'm looking at a "no powers" character. Melee combat is based around his use of a chain to trip and disarm, which he'll combine with various bits of supporting equipment to help him survive in other situations.

I hope you'll forgive me for not writing out the backstory beyond the seed I've given just yet; that part takes me about three times as long as the character sheet on a good day, even for a system I'm just starting to figure out. I'll form the sheet with the concept as the primary guideline and put the flesh on the skeleton when it's application time.

Defiant, PL 10

Player Name: Dragonsong

Character Name: Defiant

Power Level: 10 (150/150PP)

Trade-Offs: +5 Attack / -5 Damage

Unspent Power Points: 0

Progress To Bronze Status: 0/30

In Brief: Battle-hardened rebel from the Terminus, out to defend his new home.

Abilities: 6 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 4 = 32PP

Strength: 16 (+3)

Dexterity: 18 (+4)

Constitution: 14 (+2)

Intelligence: 16 (+3)

Wisdom: 14 (+2)

Charisma: 14 (+2)

Combat: 30 + 20 = 50PP

Initiative: +4

Attack: +15 Melee, +15 Ranged

Grapple: +18

Defense: +10 (+10 Base, +0 Dodge Focus), +5 Flat-Footed

Knockback: -5

Saving Throws: 8 + 10 + 8 = 26PP

Toughness: +10 (+2 Con, +3 Undercover Vest, +5 Defensive Roll)

Fortitude: +10 (+2 Con, +8)

Reflex: +14 (+4 Dex, +10)

Will: +10 (+2 Wis, +8)

Skills: 76R = 21PP

Acrobatics 8 (+12)

Craft: Electronic 12 (+15)

Computers 12 (+15)

Diplomacy 8 (+10)

Disable Device 12 (+15)

Knowledge: Tactics 8 (+11)

Knowledge: Technology 12 (+15)

Notice 8 (+10)

Search 8 (+11)

Stealth 8 (+12)

Feats: 21PP

Benefit (Knowledge: Tactics on Master Plan)

Defensive Roll 5

Equipment 5

Evasion 2

Fearless

Improved Disarm 2

Improved Throw

Improved Trip

Improvised Tools

Inventor

Master Plan

Uncanny Dodge (Hearing)

Blaster Pistol (Blast 5 (Energy), Range: 50ft) [10EP]

Chain (Strike 2 (Mighty), +2 to Trip and Disarm, Range: 10ft) [7EP]

Commlink (1 mile radius radio communication) [1EP]

Night Vision Goggles (Darkvision or Infared Flashlight) [1EP]

Rebreather (Provides 2 min (20 rounds) of oxygen) [1EP]

Undercover Vest (Protection 3, Subtle) [4EP]

Urban Camo Clothing (+5 Stealth in Urban environment) [1EP]

Powers: 0 + 0 + 0 = 0PP

Drawbacks: (-0) + (-0) = -0PP

DC Block

ATTACK      RANGE     SAVE                        EFFECT

Unarmed     Touch     DC18 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Chain       Touch     DC20 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Blaster     Ranged    DC20 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Energy)

Totals: Abilities (32) + Combat (50) + Saving Throws (26) + Skills (21) + Feats (21) + Powers (0) - Drawbacks (0) = 150/150 Power Points

This character, in addition to being an experienced techie, has a "rebel leader" vibe thanks to Diplomacy, Know (Tactics), and Master Plan. I'm considering removing that aspect by taking out those skills and feats, dropping his Charisma to 12, and going a more combat-focused route with Improved Initiative x2, Improved Block x2, and Weapon Bind, plus Uncanny Dodge on sight in addition to hearing just in case (and to soak up that last point). I am confident I could write a good background either way.

Alternatively, I could keep the leader and otherwise do much the same by dropping his reflex save to 10 and giving him Improved Initiative, Improved Block x2, and Weapon Bind. This might be a better idea, especially from a background standpoint; saves aren't all that interesting to write. I'm definitely leaning this way now that I've thought of it.

Thoughts?

[Raveled]

First things first: It's an interesting concept. We have a couple of folks empowered by or native to the Terminus hanging around, so it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to them.

That being said, there's several problems with the build as I see it. Mainly, no powers is a very bad idea. One of the core concepts of the M&M system is something called Extra Effort and Stunting, both of which let you do cool stuff but only with your superpowers. Since this guy has no superpowers, no Extra Effort or Stunting for him.

There is no reason whatsoever to have all of your Attack and Defense be base Attack and Defense. Use Dodge Focus, use Attack Focus and Attack Specialization. They save you lots of points; they are your friend.

His exotic saves (Fort, Will, Ref) are very high. As a rule, you want them to be = PL - 2. So a PL 10 character should look for them to equal out to ~8, for all three of them.

According to our House Rules, Defensive Roll is +2 to Toughness, not +1 to Toughness/+1 to Reflex. So right now his Toughness is +15. I'm also not sure how much use he's going to get out of Improved Throw and Improved Trip with a grapple like he has.

Straight off the bat, a blast pistol is not going to be accepted as Equipment. Yes, it's in the book, but in general Equipment is stuff you can go out and buy right now (and vehicles. Vehicles get a pass because they are ungodly expensive otherwise). Unless you can point to a blaster pistol in Colt or Heckler & Koch's magazine, it's not going to fly.

---

The character concept seems solid, but right now I think you're trying to do something a bit too complicated for your understanding of M&M. Try flipping through the Oddball thread or Ecal's Improved Archetypes (both at the top of this forum) and check out how they build similar characters.

[Dragonsong]

Foiled again! And I would've gotten away with it, too, if I could read!

More seriously, thanks. I'll look up those threads presently.

[Derin]

Remember, powers don't have to be magic. Badass normals can have powers based on training or devices. Your gun, I'm pretty sure, should be an Easy to Lose Device. If you wanted you could also make your chain a Device and electrify it or give it Snare or something, depending on what you wanted to do with it.

I also noticed you have neither a vehicle nor a grappling hook. Grappling hooks might not be strictly necessary, but it's difficult to get around the city and fight on rooftops without one. They can be fairly simply constructed with some basic Super Movement feats (slow fall, swinging, et cetera). You might want a vehicle because it's inconvenient and bad for a heroic image to take the bus to crime. I don't know if the mods would let you get away with using a civilian identity's car for free or not, but even if they did I doubt it'd be a very good car and it'd be terrible for the hero's cover.

[KnightDisciple]

Yeah, that Blaster Pistol and the Chain are prime candidates for Devices.

Maybe also merge the Vest and Camo suit into a single device?

As for other powers, it is noted that you can justify Speed 1 and Leaping 1 with the "training" descriptor. Maybe think about a few other things you want to try that with?

That said, even making just the blaster a Device is a big step; it's a pretty stunt-able thing once it's down in powers. Blast is a 2pp power, so you'll have room to play to get a "stun blast" or whatnot from it (maybe something to have upgraded into it at a later date? that's how some Alternate Powers come about, after all).

Some of this may end up just being shuffling a few things around. Don't be afraid to do that. :)

[Dragonsong]

Thanks, Derin and KnightDisciple; those are excellent points. Building off of the advice I have received, I now present Defiant v2. Every day I'm shufflin' (points around, that is).

In order to gain some powers while maintaining "normal human" status, I decided to go the Device route. I wanted something more "superhero" than a gun, and the illustration of the Omegadrones near the passage that inspired me depicted them with some nifty staff-blasters. As Defiant has been fighting the drones regularly it seemed reasonable that he could purloin one of them and modify it with his tech skills.

I also gave a little thought to getting around and decided to go with the classic jetpack to avoid the "hero on the bus" issue. To finance these two devices I lowered his saves (a little), used Defensive Roll properly (I hope), eliminated most of his equipment (and re-jiggered the rest), scrapped the feats built around tripping with the chain, and made use of Dodge Focus. I also decided to lessen the Attack/Save DC trade-off to +2/-2.

Quick question about alternate powers and the Linked extra: can I use the points from the original power and divide them between two linked powers? For example, is it legal to do as I have done below and say that the alternate power of a 20PP Blast 8 (with 4 feats) is Strike 5 with the mighty feat and Stun 7, both with the Linked extra (6PP + 14PP = 20PP)? I have a sinking feeling it's not, in which case I'll have to discard "mighty" and take Strike 8 with Penetrating and a couple of feats.

Whatever the result, thanks again, all!

Player Name: Dragonsong

Character Name: Defiant

Power Level: 10 (150/150PP)

Trade-Offs: +2 Attack / -2 Damage

Unspent Power Points: 0

Progress To Bronze Status: 0/30

In Brief: Battle-hardened rebel from the Terminus, out to defend his new home.

Abilities: 6 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 4 = 32PP

Strength: 16 (+3)

Dexterity: 18 (+4)

Constitution: 14 (+2)

Intelligence: 16 (+3)

Wisdom: 14 (+2)

Charisma: 14 (+2)

Combat: 24 + 12 = 36PP

Initiative: +8

Attack: +12 Melee, +12 Ranged

Grapple: +15

Defense: +10 (+6 Base, +4 Dodge Focus), +3 Flat-Footed

Knockback: -5

Saving Throws: 8 + 6 + 8 = 22PP

Toughness: +10 (+2 Con, +4 Tactical Vest, +4 Defensive Roll)

Fortitude: +10 (+2 Con, +8)

Reflex: +10 (+4 Dex, +6)

Will: +10 (+2 Wis, +8)

Skills: 80R = 20PP

Craft: Electronic 12 (+15)

Computers 12 (+15)

Diplomacy 8 (+10)

Disable Device 12 (+15)

Knowledge: Tactics 8 (+11)

Knowledge: Technology 12 (+15)

Notice 8 (+10)

Stealth 8 (+12)

Feats: 16PP

Benefit (Knowledge: Tactics on Master Plan)

Defensive Roll 2

Dodge Focus 4

Equipment 2

Evasion 2

Fearless

Improved Initiative

Inventor

Master Plan

Uncanny Dodge (Hearing)

Commlink (1 mile radius radio communication) [1EP]

Electronic Toolkit (Disable Device on elec. locks) [1EP]

Lockpick Set (Disable Device on mechanical locks) [1EP]

Masterwork Tools (+2 on Craft checks) [1EP]

Night Vision Goggles (Darkvision or Infared Flashlight) [1EP]

Tactical Vest (Protection 4) [4EP]

Urban Camo Clothing (+5 Stealth in Urban environment) [1EP]

Powers: 12 + 6 + 6 = 24PP

Device 4 (Blast-Staff; Flaws: Easy to Lose (3pp per rank)) [12PP]

Blast 8 (Staff Bolt (Energy); Feats: Alternate Power 2, Improved Range, Precise) [20PP]

Alternate Power: Strike 5 (Staff Bash (Physical); Extras: Linked (+0) to Stun; Feats: Mighty) {6PP}

Linked Power: Stun 7 (Shock Prod (Energy); Extras: Linked (+0) to Strike) {14PP}

Alternate Power: Snare 8 (Carbon Foam Projector (Physical); Feats: Improved Range, Precise, Reversible, Split Attack) {20PP}

Device 2 (Jetpack; Flaws: Easy to Lose (3pp per rank)) [6PP]

Flight 5 (Jetpack; 250mph) [10PP]

Device 2 (Bio-Regulator; Flaws: Easy to Lose (3pp per rank)) [6PP]

Immunity 10 (Bio-Regulator; Life Support, Starvation and Thirst) [10PP]

Drawbacks: (-0) + (-0) = -0PP

DC Block

ATTACK                 RANGE     SAVE                        EFFECT

Unarmed                Touch     DC18 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Staff Blast            Ranged    DC23 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Energy)

Staff Bash             Touch     DC23 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Shock Prod             Touch     DC17 Fortitude              Stun

Carbon Foam Projector  Ranged    DC18 Reflex                 Snare

Totals: Abilities (32) + Combat (36) + Saving Throws (22) + Skills (20) + Feats (16) + Powers (24) - Drawbacks (0) = 150/150 Power Points

I'm envisioning the bio-regulator as being part of a system that covers his entire body but is primarily housed in a mask which can be snatched away, leaving him exposed to the elements; hence the "easy to lose" designation, which might otherwise be a little hard to justify for an item that grants life support. The same system recycles body waste, which explains the starvation and thirst bit.

Any and all suggestions are welcome!

[Raveled]

Pretty solid build all around. I would again recommend lowering exotic saves, but you don't really need to. As for Linked powers, they use a single AP slot. So the Blast is the base power of the array, Strike + Stun is a single AP, the Snare is a single AP. However, the Blast cannot be linked to the Stun like that. They'd need to be in the same 'slot' to be Linked. There's a couple of formatting errors, like you'd probably want to list the speeds for the Flight, but that's about it.

[Dragonsong]

Oops! Good catch on the illegal Linked. That was a holdover from when Strike was the main power, and I forgot to delete it when I put Blast there instead. Fixed now, and I've added the flight speed (which I believe should be 250mph, unless I'm reading the table wrong). If there are other formatting errors, I'd be glad to fix them; I don't want to make this any more frustrating for the staff than I already have.

Thanks for the help!

[Derin]

An Easy to Lose jetpack? Shouldn't a jetpack be securely strapped to his body in some way? It'd suck of he was ripped away from it in an aerial battle and plunged to his death. You could probably avoid that in play if you're trying to conserve PP I guess, but it seems unnecessarily limiting for a flight device. (You can get flight platforms and stuff with similar problems, but I don't think they're used too often on characters who would probably die if the issue came up.) If yu are inviting fall-out-of-the-sky situations like that on purpose, a little acrobatics might help you land safely if it does come up.

[Airon]

If you want an easy-to lose flying harness, you may want to go with a hoverboard, like the Green Goblin or the kids form Back to the Future 2: look up Flight with the Platform(-1) flaw in Ultimate Power. It would certainly be a cool variation of the more common Jetpack.

Of course, as Derin noticed, this may be dangerous: you can solve it by buying, as equipment, the grapple gun for last second security line shooting, or a base-jumping harness (1 or 2 ranks of Flight with the Gliding Flaw).

[Dragonsong]

Thank you both! Plunging to one's death is to be avoided. Fortunately, Airon's idea is not only pretty neat but also works out very nicely points-wise. I don't see anywhere that says that Flight with the Platform flaw can't be taken as a device; as I understand it, it would just mean that the power can't simply be "reactivated" with a concentration check if Defiant gets knocked off his hoverboard, which fits better in any case.

Thanks to the flaw I can get the same rank of Flight for half the cost, which freed up three points. I decided to combine the fact that Defiant needs a parachute with the fact that an easy to lose life support device doesn't make much sense, as getting it ripped off while in vacuum would be just as unfortunate as getting one's jetpack ripped off while flying. This led to the transformation of the Bio-Regulator into the Mimetic Stealth Biosuit, inspired in part by Crysis.

In an effort to consolidate points I cut half of Defiant's equipment and folded its functions into the suit; after all, the device is now hard to lose and thus makes a better store of points than equipment anyway. The Biosuit now acts as life support, a parachute, armor, and stealth capability all rolled into one. I had to cut some points to make it all fit, unfortunately including Master Plan and the related skill and feat, but I got it all to work in the end.

Without further ado, Defiant v3.

Player Name: Dragonsong

Character Name: Defiant

Power Level: 10 (150/150PP)

Trade-Offs: +2 Attack / -2 Damage

Unspent Power Points: 0

Progress To Bronze Status: 0/30

In Brief: Battle-hardened rebel from the Terminus, out to defend his new home.

Abilities: 6 + 8 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 4 = 32PP

Strength: 16 (+3)

Dexterity: 18 (+4)

Constitution: 14 (+2)

Intelligence: 16 (+3)

Wisdom: 14 (+2)

Charisma: 14 (+2)

Combat: 24 + 12 = 36PP

Initiative: +8

Attack: +12 Melee, +12 Ranged

Grapple: +15

Defense: +10 (+6 Base, +4 Dodge Focus), +3 Flat-Footed

Knockback: -5

Saving Throws: 8 + 6 + 8 = 20PP

Toughness: +10 (+2 Con, +4 Mimetic Stealth Biosuit, +4 Defensive Roll)

Fortitude: +8 (+2 Con, +6)

Reflex: +10 (+4 Dex, +6)

Will: +10 (+2 Wis, +8)

Skills: 72R = 18PP

Craft: Electronic 12 (+15)

Computers 12 (+15)

Concentration 8 (+10)

Diplomacy 8 (+10)

Disable Device 12 (+15)

Knowledge: Technology 12 (+15)

Notice 8 (+10)

Feats: 13PP

Defensive Roll 2

Dodge Focus 4

Equipment 1

Evasion 2

Fearless

Improved Initiative

Inventor

Uncanny Dodge (Hearing)

Commlink (1 mile radius radio communication) [1EP]

Electronic Toolkit (Disable Device on elec. locks) [1EP]

Lockpick Set (Disable Device on mechanical locks) [1EP]

Masterwork Tools (+2 on Craft checks) [1EP]

Night Vision Goggles (Darkvision or Infared Flashlight) [1EP]

Powers: 12 + 3 + 16 = 31PP

Device 4 (Blast-Staff; Flaws: Easy to Lose (3pp per rank)) [12PP]

Blast 8 (Staff Bolt (Energy); Feats: Alternate Power 2, Improved Range, Precise) [20PP]

Alternate Power: Strike 5 (Staff Bash (Physical); Extras: Linked (+0) to Stun; Feats: Mighty) {6PP}

Linked Power: Stun 7 (Shock Prod (Energy); Extras: Linked (+0) to Strike) {14PP}

Alternate Power: Snare 8 (Carbon Foam Projector (Physical); Feats: Improved Range, Precise, Reversible, Split Attack) {20PP}

Device 1 (Hoverboard; Flaws: Easy to Lose (3pp per rank)) [3PP]

Flight 5 (Hoverboard; Flaws: Platform (-1); Speed: 250mph) [5PP]

Device 4 (Mimetic Stealth Biosuit; Extras: Hard to Lose (4pp per rank)) [16PP]

Immunity 9 (Bio-Regulator; Provides Life Support) [9PP]

Super-Movement 1 (Gravitic Stabilizers; Provide Slow Fall) [2PP]

Protection 4 (Flexible Nano-Plating) [4PP]

Concealment 4 (Mimetic Stealth System; Flaws: Blending (-1), Passive (-1); Feats: Close Range; Concealment from Visual Senses, Auditory Senses, Olfactory Senses) [5PP]

Drawbacks: (-0) + (-0) = -0PP

DC Block

ATTACK                 RANGE     SAVE                        EFFECT

Unarmed                Touch     DC18 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Staff Blast            Ranged    DC23 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Energy)

Staff Bash             Touch     DC23 Toughness (Staged)     Damage (Physical)

Shock Prod             Touch     DC17 Fortitude              Stun

Carbon Foam Projector  Ranged    DC18 Reflex                 Snare

Totals: Abilities (32) + Combat (36) + Saving Throws (20) + Skills (18) + Feats (13) + Powers (31) - Drawbacks (0) = 150/150 Power Points

If it turns out that it's illegal to combine the Platform flaw with Flying that's part of a device I'll have to take Platform Flying without the device (as I want to keep the hoverboard idea), in which case I'll probably drop Defiant's exotic saves to +8 across the board and reinstitute the Master Plan chain. Other than that I don't see any potential errors, but if they exist I would be grateful if someone would point them out.

Thanks again for all the help thus far!

[Raveled]

Is the Concealment inside the suit from all Visual, Auditory, and Olfactory senses? Concealment from an entire sense type as opposed to a single sense (Concealment vs. all Visual Senses as opposed to Concealment vs. Infravision, for an example) costs 2 ranks for each sense type; double that for Visual senses! So right now his Concealment could protect against one Visual sense, one Auditory sense, and one Olfactory sense. Or it could protect against all Auditory and Olfactory sense types; or it could protect against all Visual sense types.

[Dragonsong]

Oh dear. My mistake. For some reason I read "2 points" instead of "2 ranks" per sense type, and thought I was okay because of the Blending flaw. I've now modified it by adding the "Passive" flaw in addition to "Blending"; if I can get 2 ranks for 1 point, the math should work out correctly (4 ranks = 2 points for visual, 2 ranks each = 1 point each for auditory and olfactory, and 1 point for the feat = 5PP).

It'll still be good for initial surprise attacks and for sneaking around, and since Defiant has other assets in a fight this shouldn't be too much of a setback. Perhaps I can modify it to work closer to how it was originally once I get some more PP under my belt. In any case, if I've still done it wrong please do let me know. Thanks again!

[Derin]

Wouldn't it have been cheaper in terms of points to just make the jetpack Hard to Lose?

You can reactivate your flying platform with a concentration check. In this case that would proabably mean having a homing platform that can sense and fly under your feet, and you'd just be trying to land on it properly while falling.

[Dragonsong]

Yes, it would've been, but this has style points . In any case, my final change for this thread will be to put eight ranks in concentration, switching the two points needed out of the Fortitude Save modifier; now that Defiant has a nice sealed suit I'm not as worried about that, and +8 is the guideline I've been given anyway. With that done, I'm off to make my application.

A major thank you to everyone who helped me! I really appreciate all the advice I've received.