Barnum Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 The Penetrating extra on a Mighty Strike must be bought for all of your Strength bonus, as well. The cost of the original power is 6 for the Strike, 6 for the Penetrating extra on the Strike, 4 for the Penetrating extra on the Strength bonus, and 4 for the Power Feats, for a total cost of 20, or 17 for the purpose of Alternate Powers. Actually, you can buy partial ranks of Penetrating, which is what I (mistakenly) assumed you did. Now that you mention it, however, it makes perfect sense (obvious things usually do ). Alrighty, make that one correction and let me know how you "paid" for the extra PPs in your battlesuit, and you're all set.
Barnum Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 The Penetrating extra on a Mighty Strike must be bought for all of your Strength bonus, as well. The cost of the original power is 6 for the Strike, 6 for the Penetrating extra on the Strike, 4 for the Penetrating extra on the Strength bonus, and 4 for the Power Feats, for a total cost of 20, or 17 for the purpose of Alternate Powers. Actually, you can buy partial ranks of Penetrating, which is what I (mistakenly) assumed you did. Now that you mention it, however, it makes perfect sense (obvious things usually do ). Alrighty, make that one correction and let me know how you "paid" for the extra PPs in your battlesuit, and you're all set.
Barnum Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 The Penetrating extra on a Mighty Strike must be bought for all of your Strength bonus, as well. The cost of the original power is 6 for the Strike, 6 for the Penetrating extra on the Strike, 4 for the Penetrating extra on the Strength bonus, and 4 for the Power Feats, for a total cost of 20, or 17 for the purpose of Alternate Powers. Actually, you can buy partial ranks of Penetrating, which is what I (mistakenly) assumed you did. Now that you mention it, however, it makes perfect sense (obvious things usually do ). Alrighty, make that one correction and let me know how you "paid" for the extra PPs in your battlesuit, and you're all set.
Toptomcat Posted November 6, 2007 Author Posted November 6, 2007 The flaws on Shapeshifting went from Action x3 to Action x2 and Unreliable.
Toptomcat Posted November 6, 2007 Author Posted November 6, 2007 The flaws on Shapeshifting went from Action x3 to Action x2 and Unreliable.
Toptomcat Posted November 6, 2007 Author Posted November 6, 2007 The flaws on Shapeshifting went from Action x3 to Action x2 and Unreliable.
Dr Archeville Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Unarchived at player request (and set for re-approval).
Dr Archeville Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Okay, first off, I edited the format of the sheet to better match the format the Refs prefer to use. Having things somewhat standardized makes the approval process a tad easier. Second, as I mentioned in the PM, we've had some House Rule changes since you last visited. One being that Shinken is knocked down to PL 10. Third, his skills are off a tiny bit. Fourth, Attack Specialization isn't allowed on as broad a category as "Swords," it has to be a specific attack or weapon. Fifth, the numbers don't seem to add up. I'm getting 142 pints worth of stuff in the battlesuit, and 22 in the swords. Sixth, some examples of what the Shapeshift can be used for would be very nice.
Toptomcat Posted January 12, 2009 Author Posted January 12, 2009 1. PL 10, 157 pp? 2. Knock Knowledge: Business down from twelve ranks to ten to take care of the skill problem. 3. Yes, Attack Specialization (Swords) is too broad- but 'Shinken's carried weapons' is too narrow, balancing it. The AS (swords) (katana) (my katana) is a simple way of reflecting that the software Shinken's battlesuit is running is inflexible, but not horrendously so: the further away the chosen weapon gets from what it was designed for, the poorer the system performs. 4. See this thread for examples of Shapeshift in play. http://www.endlessflight.net/freedom/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=140&p=1567 5. Here's how the numbers in the Gadgets work. Enhanced Attack 4: 8 Enhanced Constitution 12: 12 Enhanced Defense 10: 20 Enhanced Dexterity 14: 14 Enhanced Feats 29: 29 Enhanced Skills 12: 3 Enhanced Strength 14: 14 Protection 7: 7 Immunity 9: 9 Shapeshift 4, -2 Flaw: 24 8 + 12 + 20 + 14 + 29 + 3 + 14 + 7 + 9 + 24 = 140. The Restricted 2 is paid for with the points *outside* of the Gadget, because it's a PF of the Gadget as a whole: Device 28 (hard to lose) costs 112 points, not 114. As for the swords: Strike 6 (Extra: Penetrating; PFs: Mighty, Alternate Power x3) 6 for Strike 6 for Penetrating 4 for Power Feats 4 for Penetrating on Strength =20
Dr Archeville Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 1. PL 10, 157 pp? Yep. You'll hit PL 11 once your point total reaches 160. 2. Knock Knowledge: Business down from twelve ranks to ten to take care of the skill problem. Done. 3. Yes, Attack Specialization (Swords) is too broad- but 'Shinken's carried weapons' is too narrow, balancing it. The AS (swords) (katana) (my katana) is a simple way of reflecting that the software Shinken's battlesuit is running is inflexible, but not horrendously so: the further away the chosen weapon gets from what it was designed for, the poorer the system performs. "Shinken's own weapons" isn't too narrow, it's a prime example of Attack Specialization. You can have Attack Focus (Melee) and Attack Specialization (own weapons) to show the performance variations. 4. See this thread for examples of Shapeshift in play. http://www.endlessflight.net/freedom/vi ... 140&p=1567 That's not really helpful, since there're no game stats listed. Please provide a list of sample uses for Shapeshift (and do be aware the rule "nothing from a Variable Power/Shapeshift can exceed the rank of the VP/shapeshift itself" has been officially lifted, so the Shapeshift 4 could provide Flight 5 or Teleport 9, for example). 5. Here's how the numbers in the Gadgets work. Hunh, don't know where I made my error. Alright, that checks out. The Restricted 2 is paid for with the points *outside* of the Gadget, because it's a PF of the Gadget as a whole: Device 28 (hard to lose) costs 112 points, not 114. Yes, the Restricted is paid with points "outside" the Device, which is why it is 114 (28 x 4, + 2 for Restricted 2). Which, with the swords, adds to 126, which is what's listed in the totals at the bottom, so works out fine. As for the swords: Strike 6 (Extra: Penetrating; PFs: Mighty, Alternate Power x3) 6 for Strike 6 for Penetrating 4 for Power Feats 4 for Penetrating on Strength =20 Ah, quite right (my mistake, I was miscalculating Strike as Blast, though you did not indicate the Penetrating was also applying to the Mighty damage; that has been rectified). However, speaking of Penetrating/Mighty, should the Plasma Blade function have Mighty? It's a lightsaber-type thing, right? Those aren't much affected by the wielder's strength. Also, Damage effects (Blast & Strike) can be lethal or nonlethal on a use-by-usebasis, you don't need to choose one or the other at the time of creation. So you don't need an AP to have one be lethal and one be nonlethal. Speaking of attacks/damage, he also ends a DC block. Check the Game Rules thread (or most any approved PC) for the format.
Toptomcat Posted January 12, 2009 Author Posted January 12, 2009 "Shinken's own weapons" isn't too narrow, it's a prime example of Attack Specialization. You can have Attack Focus (Melee) and Attack Specialization (own weapons) to show the performance variations. That doesn't provide the same effect, not exactly. I'll flush a point down the drain for the sake of concept if you like, effectively buying a two-point Attack Specialization (swords) feat. That's not really helpful, since there're no game stats listed. Please provide a list of sample uses for Shapeshift (and do be aware the rule "nothing from a Variable Power/Shapeshift can exceed the rank of the VP/shapeshift itself" has been officially lifted, so the Shapeshift 4 could provide Flight 5 or Teleport 9, for example). Really? Hmm. With that in mind, I'll probably bump Shapeshift down to 3. As for examples: utility powers, basically. A backup Strike in the case of disarmament, Super-Senses for sensors that require significant computing resources, Super-Movements for maneuverability-enhancing gadgets, and the like. Nothing wild and difficult to justify with onboard modular systems like Teleport, Anatomic Separation, Create Object, Duplication, Insubstantial, and the like. However, speaking of Penetrating/Mighty, should the Plasma Blade function have Mighty? It's a lightsaber-type thing, right? Those aren't much affected by the wielder's strength. The power is a burning sheath of plasma surrounding a very physical sword: Mighty makes sense there. Also, Damage effects (Blast & Strike) can be lethal or nonlethal on a use-by-usebasis, you don't need to choose one or the other at the time of creation. So you don't need an AP to have one be lethal and one be nonlethal. You're right. That's a relic from when this was a M&M 1 character- way back before these boards- but it works well enough thematically that I'd like to keep it. (Come to think, it may be a relic from when this was a TSR Marvel Super Heroes character. I'll have to check.) I think I saw one-point Lethal Only and Nonlethal Only drawbacks in Ultimate Power: I'll find another Power Feat to tack onto both of them in compensation. Speaking of attacks/damage, he also needs a DC block. Check the Game Rules thread (or most any approved PC) for the format. Once I'm finished with the revised version that spends 157 pp while remaining PL 10, incorporates the swords' drawbacks properly, pares back the Shapeshifting, and- should you insist- spends two points on Attack Specialization (swords), I'll make this change as well.
Dr Archeville Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 You're right. That's a relic from when this was a M&M 1 character- way back before these boards- but it works well enough thematically that I'd like to keep it. (Come to think, it may be a relic from when this was a TSR Marvel Super Heroes character. I'll have to check.) I think I saw one-point Lethal Only and Nonlethal Only drawbacks in Ultimate Power: I'll find another Power Feat to tack onto both of them in compensation. Not quite. You can't have APs where one setting is "can't do X" (ex: can't do lethal damage) and the other is "can only do X" (ex: can only do lethal damage).
Toptomcat Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 What's the real problem here? Strike 6 Power Feats: Penetrating, Mighty Cost: 12 + Strength penetrating cost Net Benefit: Strike in melee, dealing either lethal or nonlethal damage Strike 6 Power Feats: Penetrating, Mighty, Alternate Power Drawbacks: Lethal Only Alternate Power: Strike 6 Power Feats: Penetrating, Mighty Drawbacks: Nonlethal Only Cost: 12 + Strength Penetrating cost Net Benefit; Strike in melee, dealing either lethal or nonlethal damage- but the switch between them can only be made once per round This isn't senseless point-grubbing. It's thematic power choice. I'm spending exactly the same thing for something that performs very slightly worse. Why is this a concern?
Dr Archeville Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 Because having two such "flawed" ("drawbacked") powers isn't a limit for you at all, since you're not actually losing out on anything. And under the first build, the switch can only be made effectively once per round, since you only get one attack per round. Also, for the Plasma Blade -- if the only change is the descriptor/type of damage (and that's what it appears to be since everything else is the same), that should be done with the Variable Descriptor power feat (from Ultimate Power).
Toptomcat Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 Not quite so. If facing a mixed group of mooks, some of which are robots and thus immune to nonlethal damage, and some of which are not, it could complicate a sequence of Takedown Attacks. However, I agree. This does not limit me appreciably. That is why- look closely- the two abilities are functionally the same in utility and cost, regardless of how many 'drawbacks' they have semantically, with no actual point savings or extra power gained from the nonexistent drawback. As for the Variable Descriptor power feat- good idea. That will be in the revision.
Dr Archeville Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 Not quite so. If facing a mixed group of mooks, some of which are robots and thus immune to nonlethal damage, and some of which are not, it could complicate a sequence of Takedown Attacks. A rare enough event, I'd say -- Hordes o' Mooks tend to be fairly homogeneous -- that any negative feedback would be handled as a Complication, if even that. However, I agree. This does not limit me appreciably. That is why- look closely- the two abilities are functionally the same in utility and cost, regardless of how many 'drawbacks' they have semantically, with no actual point savings or extra power gained from the nonexistent drawback. But then you mentioned using the extra point to get PFs for the two attacks, which is effectively getting a PF for no appreciable cost/for free. Especially if you added different PFs to each attack (not saying that's what you plan, just that doing so would complicate things further). Perhaps more importantly, building it as such -- one power cannot do X, with an AP of the same power which can only do X -- would set a precedent which I (and I imagine the other Refs) would be wholly opposed to seeing.
Toptomcat Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 Updated version up. This makes the modular systems something that requires hours of work in a dedicated workshop to reconfigure, uses the points saved on them to increase the ability score increases the suit grants, uses the Strength increase that brought to split the swords into two devices, increases the differentiation between the different modes of attack the swords offer, pays two points for Attack Specialization (sword), adds Knowledge (technology) to actually get some use out of that Inventor feat, and spends all available Power Points. Submitted for your approval.
Dr Archeville Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 I'd still really like to see some examples of what sort of modules the Variable Power can get him. Letting us know exactly what some 'common' settings are would both let the Refs know what sort of things he can bring to a game, and what sort of things he might bring. In other words, having something like a sample suite of super-senses already "established" will make it more likely that a Ref would approve an all-new configuration that you come up with during play. VP is such an open-ended power that the Refs need examples of what to expect. , Attack Specialization [swords] 1 (costs 2), Attack Specialization [katana] 1, Attack Specialization [shinken's carried weapons] 1, This still doesn't work: M&M doesn't get into this fine a level of granularity. Attack focus (melee) and Attack Specialization (own weapons) are the only options open to you in this game system. (If it were the HERO System, that'd be a different story, because that system does get into that fine a level of detail.) I also have some concerns with your Equipment. I'll start off with some good news: you don't need to pay for workshop (electronic) and workshop (mechanical) as separate features, you can just lump them together into one feature. You can certainly have different workshop areas in the HQ, but you only need to pay for them once. Now, the bad news. First, these * power (vehicle: transport jet. Private Jet base, Armor 2, Cloaking Device (visual senses, radar, sound)) * power (vehicles for the security force: 20 ranks of the Equipment feat. Two APCs and a military helicopter.) don't work, because you're effectively buying Vehicles as Equipment for a Headquarters (which is bought with Equipment points), essentially using Equipment points to pay for more Equipment. (Plus, since they're bought as something with HQ points, they should technically only be used while inside the HQ. While an APC might be able to get around in a warehouse-sized facility, a jet and military chopper would have a far harder time.) Also, I'm not seeing anything indicating how/why you have 100 power armored guards. I see a prior Ref indicated that they could be done with the Connected feat, but I heartily disagree. For one, the feat description says nothing to indicate it can be used for something that big and that long-term. Secondly, the feat description says it takes a few minutes to call in a favor, but you specifically said earlier in the thread that you "don't want them arriving one or ten or twenty minutes into a supervillian attack. I want them on the premises, at all times, available." There is, however, a compromise of sorts: you can use the one point freed from combining the two workshops into one to get the Personnel feature, from Book of Magic. Headquarters with this feature have a staff of personnel commensurate with its size and facilities. The staff is made up of characters created & controlled by the GM and tasked with serving the headquarters. As such, they are not to be considered full-purpose Minions of the occupant(s) of the HQ. So while an HQ’s personnel would help defend it in case of attack, they’re not going to go with the owner on adventures or otherwise assist outside of their duties; this feature simply ensures that there’s someone taking care of the headquarters while the owner isn’t home. The guards would stay in the HQ, but would not be accompanying him anywhere outside that structure. Lastly, the two drawbacks: I'd like a bit of clarification. -Even a few molecules of nerve gas, such as will slip past any filter, will have a devastating impact on Benjiro's already weakened system. Vulnerable (nerve gas: Uncommon, Major, ad hoc ad +1 pt because it bypasses normal Immunity) - 4 pts. So would his suit be considered airtight or not? Also, given the extensive damage to his nervous system, would you consider expanding the Vulnerability from "nerve gases" (which would include sarin and VX nerve gas) to "neurotoxins" (which would include those as well as black widow spider venom, botulin/botox, cobra venom, curare, fugu/pufferfish, hemlock, lead arsenate, some forms of rattlesnake venom, scorpion venom, sea wasp jellyfish venom, spitting cobra venom, tarantula venom, and wolfsbane)? It would seem to fit better thematically (and would net you an extra point as the Frequency would increase to Common), but it is up to you, I'm fine either way. Also, a bit of warning (which you may be fully aware of): with his Fort save so fairly low (+4, -3 out of suit), even without the vulnerability a nerve gas/neurotoxin hit is gonna be nasty, since a nerve gas weapon would in all likelihood have the Poison extra (those snake venoms would definitely have the Extra), and so be hitting you twice. Recent upgrades to the operating code of the battlesuit have introduced a number of security flaws. -Minor Vulnerability to Software-based attacks - 1 pt. Uncommon frequency, yes? What do you consider to be a "software-based attack"; can you give some examples? Would an electromagnetic pulse that wipes the system's software count?
Toptomcat Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 I'd still really like to see some examples of what sort of modules the Variable Power can get him. Letting us know exactly what some 'common' settings are would both let the Refs know what sort of things he can bring to a game, and what sort of things he might bring. In other words, having something like a sample suite of super-senses already "established" will make it more likely that a Ref would approve an all-new configuration that you come up with during play. VP is such an open-ended power that the Refs need examples of what to expect. Nearly any combat feat or physical skill. Most non-magical Sensory effects. Most Movement effects not including dimensional travel or teleportation- including Flight if truly necessary, at rank 3ish, but mostly acrobatic/super-ninja effects like Leaping, Speed, Slow Fall, and the like. No Mental effects with the possible exception of Confuse drugs and a significantly flawed Mind Shield. Typical patrol configuration: Speed 3 Leaping 3 Super-Strength 2 Datalink 8 (Flaw: Headquarters computer only) Enhanced Fortitude Save 3 This still doesn't work: M&M doesn't get into this fine a level of granularity. Attack focus (melee) and Attack Specialization (own weapons) are the only options open to you in this game system. (If it were the HERO System, that'd be a different story, because that system does get into that fine a level of detail.) Bollocks. Mutants and Masterminds is as flexible as you want to make it. Edited to a more technically legal structure. First, these don't work, because you're effectively buying Vehicles as Equipment for a Headquarters (which is bought with Equipment points), essentially using Equipment points to pay for more Equipment. (Plus, since they're bought as something with HQ points, they should technically only be used while inside the HQ. While an APC might be able to get around in a warehouse-sized facility, a jet and military chopper would have a far harder time.) Very well. I will temporarily drop the transport jet, later paying for it with standard Equipment: for the security force's vehicles, reduce the discretionary point allotment for one out of every five of the guards from five to four, paying for the vehicles out of their pocket. Also, I'm not seeing anything indicating how/why you have 100 power armored guards. I see a prior Ref indicated that they could be done with the Connected feat, but I heartily disagree. For one, the feat description says nothing to indicate it can be used for something that big and that long-term. Secondly, the feat description says it takes a few minutes to call in a favor, but you specifically said earlier in the thread that you "don't want them arriving one or ten or twenty minutes into a supervillian attack. I want them on the premises, at all times, available." There is, however, a compromise of sorts: you can use the one point freed from combining the two workshops into one to get the Personnel feature, from Book of Magic. The guards would stay in the HQ, but would not be accompanying him anywhere outside that structure. An acceptable kludge, so long as you feel okay about a Benefit feat that allows the Personnel to assist in the event of alien invasions, mass supervillian attacks, and similar catastrophic, world-ending emergencies. Lastly, the two drawbacks: I'd like a bit of clarification. So would his suit be considered airtight or not? Also, given the extensive damage to his nervous system, would you consider expanding the Vulnerability from "nerve gases" (which would include sarin and VX nerve gas) to "neurotoxins" (which would include those as well as black widow spider venom, botulin/botox, cobra venom, curare, fugu/pufferfish, hemlock, lead arsenate, some forms of rattlesnake venom, scorpion venom, sea wasp jellyfish venom, spitting cobra venom, tarantula venom, and wolfsbane)? It would seem to fit better thematically (and would net you an extra point as the Frequency would increase to Common), but it is up to you, I'm fine either way. Also, a bit of warning (which you may be fully aware of): with his Fort save so fairly low (+4, -3 out of suit), even without the vulnerability a nerve gas/neurotoxin hit is gonna be nasty, since a nerve gas weapon would in all likelihood have the Poison extra (those snake venoms would definitely have the Extra), and so be hitting you twice. The suit is airtight by any sensible definition, but no seal is truly, totally impermeable, and even the smallest quantity of poison will put a serious strain on Benjiro's system. As for expanding the weakness, it would be fine by me- but any blood or contact toxin getting through the armor to actually physically touch Benjiro would have to be delivered by a lethal attack inflicting at least a Disabled status, and ingested toxins would be non-heroing territory, which would make the drawback debatably point-worthy and more Complication territory. And yes, the exotic saves are a known weakness. Uncommon frequency, yes? What do you consider to be a "software-based attack"; can you give some examples? Would an electromagnetic pulse that wipes the system's software count? Yes, Uncommon frequency. An EMP that relied on brute force, such as one from a villain with electricity powers, would probably not qualify: a pulse specifically designed to slag equipment, pulsed, and modulated to bypass simple protections, like one from an evil inventor's gadget, would.
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