Limits / Extent of the Medium flaw (Teleport)

[Folkert]

"Medium (–1): You require a medium for your teleportation, such as electrical or telephone wires, root structures, waterways, doorways, shadows, flames, mirrors, and so forth. You can only teleport from and to locations where your medium exists." (UP, p. 91)

As per the title, where do the limits of this flaw lie?

Size of the medium doesn't seem to be an issue (-> telephone wires) nor directly touching the medium (unless you start digging for those wire).

So does this mean that I could teleport anywhere (with the medium: shadows flaw) as long as something, no matter how small or big, throws a shadow in the vicinity?

[Reason for asking: I wanted to have character who can step out of people's shadows, so I constructed it for now as an ordinary teleport since the medium:shadows way seems a bit too abusive.]

Thanks!

[Jack of Tales]

I suppose its up to you to make it non-abusive. I did that route for Kizzy but usually have her only use shadows that are about her size. Which is still pretty easy, doors, closets, treets, cars, etc.

you could take the medium and say that you can only appear out of a person's shadow if it is say a certain size. For example, at noon shadows are typically much shorter thus you may not be able to use the power.

[Veiled Malice]

There's been a lot of talk about this, specifically teleportation via shadows, and I found that a good rule of thumb is finding a shadow as big as your body. Since, like you pointed out, shadows are so prevalent, there should be a slightly higher standard concerning them than say, light fixtures or mirrors.

Also, one has to consider the opacity of said shadow. At high noon in summer, people simply don't have enough in the way of a shadow to use. However, at night next to a street lamp, you'd probably be able to pull it off. Just use some common sense in limiting the power to the degree you'd need to in order to earn the flaw, and you'll do fine.

[Dr Archeville]

I'd also vote that "the shadow must be roughly as big as the person teleporting through it."

If you can 'port through any shadow, no matter how small, it's not a Flaw, since small shadows are so common that it's not really a restriction.

[Barnum]

I think that is a fine limitation (shadow size), but I wouldn't make it the only one. I would have no problem with a player who could only teleport into very deep/dark shadows or only into large stationary shadows (for example).

My only concern would be that for a -1 Flaw it should limit the power by roughly 50% or limit its use about 50% of the time. As long as the Flaw approaches that, I'd approve it. If it limits the power less than that, then it is only worth a Drawback in my opinion (or maybe even a complication).

[Folkert]

Thanks, everyone!

I think I will stay with my unlimited "shadow-teleport" (perhaps with a drawback) for now as it seems to fit better what I had in mind.

(Though, given his appearance, a medium (mirrors) still looks tempting. :twisted: )

[Dr Archeville]

If it's unlimited, it doesn't get a Drawback ;)

[Folkert]

:roll:

Make "unlimited" into "not-limited-by-the-size-of-existing-shadows-but-still-tied-to-the-existence-of-shadows", then. :D

[Dr Archeville]

Then it's a Complication/an effect of the Descriptor. (The existence of characters with Immunity to Fire Damage is not a justification for giving Johnny Storm the drawback "only works on targets not immune to fire" on his Blast.)

[Folkert]

Interesting.

I assume, if applied to the issue at hand, your example would go like: The existence of characters without shadows is not a justification for giving Chazal the drawback "only works on 'targets' with shadows" on his Teleport ?

I, by contrast, would like argue that "Not being able to teleport if no shadows are present at target location." should constitute an acceptable 1-point Power Loss drawback.

[Barnum]

What I (and I think Dr. A.) would be concerned about is a build getting the -1 discount without incurring any actual limitation.

Player - "I want to teleport into the middle of the field."

GM - "But there are no shadows there. You'll have to teleport to the edge of the field instead where the trees are."

Player - "Yes there are too shadows there. The blades of grass are each casting tiny shadows. I can use that as my medium."

GM - ". . ."

Technically, anywhere there are light and objects (or just no light) there are shadows. I really don't think this will be a big problem here though. We have some pretty savvy players. And though we have had some excessively twinky builds get approved, the other players just ignored them until they left. :shock: That's the best approval system of all. You don't just have to get approved, you have to build a character that other people (and GMs) want to play with.

[Folkert]

You got me here - that's really an argument I never expected to see.

But since I was only recently admonished by the Doc for "applying Real Nazi Though Processes" to comic book Nazis, I don't think real life physics should be brought into this.

Most comics do have shadowless locations, like your field (a vast sea of green) or standard brightly-lit lab.

In the end, it doesn't really matter to me as Chazal's teleport is an AP of his Insubstantiality with points to burn, so the DB wouldn't get me anything - it's more a matter of stringent principles.

[Barnum]

Oh I agree about "comic book shadows." It would never be a problem in a "normal" game. A GM would just say, "no, you can't teleport into the field" and the game would move on. Here, since the vast majority of playing is done without GMs, the matter is a bit more complicated. I think that is why players instinctively look out for themselves, not by ruling per se but by picking their play-mates carefully.

I know I would.

[Dr Archeville]

Interesting.

I assume, if applied to the issue at hand, your example would go like: The existence of characters without shadows is not a justification for giving Chazal the drawback "only works on 'targets' with shadows" on his Teleport ?

No, I'd say something more like "the possibility of creating an area that has absolutely no shadows of any size through which the PC could teleport is so unusual, and the natural (i.e., non-man-made) existence of such places so slim, that it's not worth even a drawback, it's a Complication inherent in the fact that his teleport is based on moving through shadows (no matter how minuscule)."

But since I was only recently admonished by the Doc for "applying Real Nazi Though Processes" to comic book Nazis, I don't think real life physics should be brought into this.

We're talking about teleporting through shadows, presumably by magic: physics has already been tossed out the window.

And, as Barnum says, we're just wanting to make sure that a Flaw actually Limits the characters powers. To quote the HERO System 5E rulebook (which has more than a few similarities to M&M 2E), "A Limitation (Flaw) that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus." For example, if you have Teleportation (Flaw: Medium - only through shadows that are roughly as big as the PC), that Flaw is a flaw, since it does restrict the character's ability... unless he also has Obscure (Visual; shadows), a power that allows him to generate shadows wherever he wishes.