Various questions concerning firearms

[Folkert]

I've been looking at the possibility of making a PC relying on ordinary firearms and have a few questions concerning that:

1. He'll be a highly skilled gunsmith (ie. Craft: Chemical, Mechanical and Knowledge: Technology) but this particular field is about the whole extent of his abilities, thus being able to build/repair nothing but guns and knowing only the latest developments in weaponry. How to simulate this?

As a Limited (Only ...) flaw on the skill cost, drawback or complication?

2. Is there any chance for adding/creating a ranked feat akin to Throwing Mastery ? (Over on the ATT I read through some suggestions to do this on a 2 point per rank basis - Throwing Mastery essentially being Strike added to a thrown weapon and "Shooting Mastery" thus a Blast added to firearms.)

3. Is there way to create a limited version of the Takedown feat for ranged weapons ? (Yes, I read SK's answer about TD being confined to melee weapons because of the inherent greater range of ranged weapons - thus making a tighter limitation necessary.)

Thanks!

[Dr Archeville]

1) Take those skills as Enhanced Skills, with a Flaw "Limited to only firearms" (there's a character with that very build in the Paragons book).

2) I take it you mean some way to increase damage a firearm does? Why not just go with Boost (Blast; Personal only)? The "firearm only" part may be a drawback or full flaw, I'm not certain.

3) Takedown Attack lets you make another attack at a foe immediately after your first target drops. It can only be used once a round, unless used against Minions where it can be used as many times as you're able (i.e., as long as Minions keep dropping, you can keep attacking).

I honestly cannot think of any way to do the non-Minion part, but the Minion part seems simple enough to approximate: just add Area (Radius, or maybe even Shapeable) to your Blast, Flawed so it can only be used against Minions.

[Warmonger]

Feat

Gunsweeper: If you knock out or disable an opponent with a ranged attack, you get an immediate extra attack against another opponent within range but with a 25 percent miss chance. You can’t

move before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same

attack and attack bonus as the first. You can use this feat once per round,

except when fighting minions, where you can use it an unlimited number but each time adds a cumulative 25 percent miss chance.

You can take this feat a second time, allowing you to move up to 5 feet

between each attack you make, but you still cannot move more than your

total speed, regardless of the number of attacks you make.

Thats a suggestion anyway. The more crunchy inclined among us might be able to shape that into something balanced.

Also I remember a feat from Modern Firearms that allowed you to substitute everything in a round to walk the fire across a certain area forcing others to... wait no I think Dr.A has the right of it. A shapable are aattack does that really well.

[Folkert]

Thanks for the detailed replies, Dr. A and Warmonger! They really help!

1) Take those skills as Enhanced Skills, with a Flaw "Limited to only firearms" (there's a character with that very build in the Paragons book).

* looks through his Paragons * Well, shoot me! (Please don't! )

Obligatory question: "Dire" Straits uses those boni to go above PL. Would I be allowed to do that also? (Particularly interesting for PL 6 hero with no great intelligence who still wants to have a grandiose Knowledge: Technology: Firearms.)

2) I take it you mean some way to increase damage a firearm does? Why not just go with Boost (Blast; Personal only)? The "firearm only" part may be a drawback or full flaw, I'm not certain.

Interesting solution, that. Might be the only way to do this within the existing rules, but thematically some things seem a bit off to me: First, his ability to hit vulnerable spots (ie. damage) would continually waver up and up (unless I went for the never-approved-before Total Fade extra) and second a 'power-up ' phase before being able to hit more sensitive area somehow doesn't feel right. (And buying Boost up to a free action for this purpose would probably prove prohibitive due to the higher costs.)

And finally there's one conceptual problem I'd have with both 1. and 2.: Perhaps I'm rather oversensitive, but I'd been looking at making an un-powered master shooter, not relying on that "meta-human cheating". And while I understand that I could make those with the "skill" or "training" descriptor, these abilities would still go in a proper nullifying field and she'd forget everything she ever learned about firearms while the guy next to me keeps throwing playing cards to eviscerate people without any problems.

3) Takedown Attack lets you make another attack at a foe immediately after your first target drops. It can only be used once a round, unless used against Minions where it can be used as many times as you're able (i.e., as long as Minions keep dropping, you can keep attacking).

I honestly cannot think of any way to do the non-Minion part, but the Minion part seems simple enough to approximate: just add Area (Radius, or maybe even Shapeable) to your Blast, Flawed so it can only be used against Minions.

This is a very interesting thought and once again proof that I'm still not thinking "outside of the box" enough.

I have one problem here, though: It'd work fine as an AP for personal weapons (aka device), perhaps (with generous GMs) even work as an AP on equipment weapons, but not on picked-up-on-chance weapons (the obligatory chase into a gun shop ).

[Folkert]

Feat

Gunsweeper: If you knock out or disable an opponent with a ranged attack, you get an immediate extra attack against another opponent within range but with a 25 percent miss chance. You can’t move before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same attack and attack bonus as the first. You can use this feat once per round, except when fighting minions, where you can use it an unlimited number but each time adds a cumulative 25 percent miss chance.

You can take this feat a second time, allowing you to move up to 5 feet

between each attack you make, but you still cannot move more than your

total speed, regardless of the number of attacks you make.

Thats a suggestion anyway. The more crunchy inclined among us might be able to shape that into something balanced.

Thanks for the suggestion!

I've to admit I was looking for something feat-based like this (to use with all guns she picks up). Given my spotty record at judging mechanics I really can't comment on its balance, but I do know one thing: Since all of my guns have ammo-based drabacks, this would be murder on the clip. :twisted:

[Dr Archeville]

Just because it's listed as a Power doesn't mean it's a power per se. I don't think Dire's extreme skill with firearms is supposed to be due to any power, just extreme training. And I've seen more than one build of Batman done with Concealment (visual & hearing; Only in shadows) to represent his inhuman skill with stealth, though it's not a metahuman power, it's just the result of his extreme dedication to being a detective-ninja.

And as for the "not be nullified" thing -- either A) tack the Innate power feat on, or know that, since the descriptor is "skill & training," the only descriptor that could nullify it is something with an appropriate (counter-)descriptor, like "amnesia gas" (so Mutant Dampening Collars won't do squat to him, no more than they would nullify a robot or mage.)

I'd be fine with letting you take a "naked" Area Effect extra (an idea borrowed from the HERO System). Basically, you buy the Extra like normal, but it's not tied to a particular power. For example, say your character has a damage cap of +12 (PL 10 char trading -2 attack for +2 damage). He could get up to Blast 12 (24pp). Blast 12 (Extra: Shapeable Area) would cost 36pp. The cost of the "naked" Shapeable Area modifier would be (36-24 = ) 12pp. So you pay 12pp, and any handgun you pick up that does +12 or less damage gets the Shapeable Area extra.

I've no idea what the other Judges feel about this, though (and I'll admit I've not given it a lot of thought so there may be some unbalancing factor I'm not seeing). You could do much the same effect with Boost, I suppose, with the points from Boost going towards adding the Shapeable Area extra, rather than increasing the effective rank of the power itself (since Boost can give a target traits that it doesn't normally have).

[Barnum]

Why not just buy:

Blast X [Drawback]

Then you don't have to worry about mixing and matching powers with equipment with devices, and you can apply any extra you want to to it (Area, Penetrating, etc.).

[Folkert]

I'll freely admit that would probably be the easiest way, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Especially as it would then not make any difference at all which kind of weapon he used. (Derringer: Blast 8, M60: Blast 8) )

[Dr Archeville]

Add another Drawback: Rank of Blast limited to no more than the rank of the firearm + (some number)?

[Barnum]

I'll freely admit that would probably be the easiest way, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Especially as it would then not make any difference at all which kind of weapon he used. (Derringer: Blast 8, M60: Blast 8) )

If it is a lower ranked damage weapon just adjust your bonus accordingly. For example, if it is a hold-out pistol and you want it to only do as much damage as a shotgun, just add +6 to the dice when you roll it (instead of +10). You don't need a system for everything. Sometimes subtraction works just as well. :D

[Folkert]

Add another Drawback: Rank of Blast limited to no more than the rank of the firearm + (some number)?

Verrry interesting! Must retreat to the Fortress of Gunnery and ponder this development.

Sometimes subtraction works just as well.

I suppose the villains will do the same, right?

"My wife made my favorite cookies today. Thus I will only use 5 ranks of my Terrible Murder Blast on you, insolent dog!"

:P

[Barnum]

I suppose the villains will do the same, right?

Trust me . . . the villains around here will be to busy actually playing the game to even notice. ;)

[Folkert]

Thanks, folks, all of this helped immensely! :clap:

Thanks to your help, some ideas 'borrowed' from the ATT and a RL friend, I now definitely know where I want to go with this.

Probably not the last question, though:

How to model an enforced clip change?

One of the firing modes (Alternate Power) needs different ammo than the rest and so he needs a move action to change clips before using it and another move action to switch back if he wants to use any of the other powers.

Thanks!

[Dr Archeville]

Assuming you're doing the various "modes of fire" as an Array of different Blasts, it'd be (according to UP, pg.111) a 1-point Drawback to have it require a move action to switch between array slots (instead of a free action).

[Folkert]

Thanks, Doc A. !

That's a bit more than I was looking for as all the other "firing modes" use the same (standard) kind of ammo and thus need no clip switching between them. I will then simply put it down on the sheet as a 0-point drawback of this particular AP and play it accordingly. :)

[Dr Archeville]

If it's just for that one firing mode, then, yes, it'd be a Complication.

[Folkert]

Well, I don't think it even rates as a complication - especially in the light of how they are usually tied into the hero points concept - but rather saw it as a piece of flavour with a small game-mechanics relevant effect, thus my rating of it as a "0-point drawback".

[Dr Archeville]

Fair point.

And I know Hasselhoff's big in Germany, but I never pegged you for a fan ;)

[Folkert]

What can I say?

The man single-handedly brought down the Wall and thus made our reunification possible ... or not.

Seriously, this Garthe Knight was just too good to leave wayside when I stumbled over him while searching for something completely different.

[Jack of Tales]

Rather then filling the forum with more threads I figured I'd use this one to help me out with a question about firearms.

How can I shoot through walls? I have this crazy idea for a villain build and wanted her gun [a device] to fire through walls. She can already see through them with the gun's scope (Penetrates Concealment says it can see through opaque materials) all that I need is an idea of how to make the gun fire through them.

[Folkert]

Mechanically, that is rather easy. Simply use the Powerfeat Indirect 1. (That's exactly what I did for Finder's guns who simply punch through every kind of cover.)

[Jack of Tales]

Thanks! Muwhahaha the evil sniper is complete then :X I gave her Progression 5 and Improved Range 7 so her maximum range is 40,000 and her increments are 20,000. Combined with the scope which has sight to penetrate buildings and any concealment (powers or not) she can fire from about 7 and a half miles away. Talk about overkill (and this is at PL 8 mind you >.>)

[Barnum]

If you already have the ability to see through the walls (your scope), you could also buy the power up to Perception range. Then you would be a sniper who can shoot through walls and never misses. :)

[Heridfel]

Hmm. Indirect works most of the time, though it'd need to be rank 2 if you wanted to be able to choose the origin point, and it wouldn't work if the person was pressed against the object (since the power can't originate from inside an object). My best idea to cover all contingencies is an Insubstantial Attack.

Insubstantial 2 (Extras: Attack (+0), Range (Ranged) (+1); Flaws: Affects Objects Only (-1), Limited (Only Insubstantial to bullets) (-2); Duration (Instant) (-2))

Total cost: 2 pp

Link that sucker to your Blast, and you have a gun with bullets that fire through objects but still hits people.

[Dr Archeville]

I don't think it'd work that way.

Firstly, Insubstantial 2 is just the "Gaseous" level, so it couldn't pass through anything that's airtight.

Secondly, why not just go with Indirect 3, since at that rank the attack can come from any direction away from or toward you, zipping around/phasing through/ricocheting off cover (based on whatever the descriptor is; and where does it say the power can't originate from inside an object? Technically it's always originating from you, no matter the angle, at least for determining total range)? It'd be the same effect, it seems, and be lots cheaper (and less cluttered).