Various questions concerning firearms

[Heridfel]

1) That doesn't make the bullets Insubstantial. It makes the intervening objects Insubstantial, and bullets naturally pass through gases.

2) While Indirect 3 would allow the bullet to come from any angle, it doesn't fit the descriptor of the power. It's not bouncing around crazily; it's firing through anything that would provide cover.

3) Indirect says that cover is evaluated between the (indirect) origin point and the target. If the origin point is within a solid object, that object is providing cover to the target.

I think the important thing there is the end cost. I came up with 2 pp, and that seems about what others got doing it other ways. I'd probably call it something like "Spectral Shots" and make it a ranked power feat rather than show how it was built.

[Jack of Tales]

Insubstantial sounds interesting. Is that how it works though? If so then this girl is just...deadly

[Dr Archeville]

1) That doesn't make the bullets Insubstantial. It makes the intervening objects Insubstantial, and bullets naturally pass through gases.

Ah, gotcha, mea culpa.

2) While Indirect 3 would allow the bullet to come from any angle, it doesn't fit the descriptor of the power. It's not bouncing around crazily; it's firing through anything that would provide cover.

Which can fit the effect. The effect of Indirect isn't "bounces around," that's the descriptor; the effect is "comes from some indirect angle," which seems to be precisely what you want. Indirect doesn't have to be bouncing, it can be turning or phasing through things. There's a character in the HERO System/Champions RPG, Gyre, who has "spacebreaker grenades" that do exactly what you want -- passes through obstacles to get to a target -- and it's done with the Indirect advantage (which works exactly the same as the Indirect power feat in M&M).

3) Indirect says that cover is evaluated between the (indirect) origin point and the target. If the origin point is within a solid object, that object is providing cover to the target.

So don't have the origin point be from within an object, have it be from the outer edge closest to the target.

I think the important thing there is the end cost. I came up with 2 pp, and that seems about what others got doing it other ways. I'd probably call it something like "Spectral Shots" and make it a ranked power feat rather than show how it was built.

I think you may also be overlooking one very important thing, which makes the build very broken: under your "makes all intervening objects insubstantial" build (which only says "Objects," not "Objects providing Cover"), the bullets would also pass through any object that offers Protection. Which would include equipment and devices like suits of (power) armor.

I'm also not sure it'd be able to affect constructs/robots -- or, rather, the build as it is now would make the bullets harmlessly pass through constructs the same way they do any other obstacle, thus making you unable to harm them.

[Jack of Tales]

Yea..I wasn't thinking firing through people simple through say X feet of wall or metal. She'd still need to line the shot up. Not sure if I meant that she can make the bullets 'appear' at a certain point or just piercing cover. I like the idea of it piercing cover better though.

Detective: "Well if we just follow the bullet holes in...well..these eight buildings and thirty walls we find the sniper was positioned on top of this roof here."

Edit: As for being broken..well...yes it is XD It wasn't intended for use, just to give me a good story to write. "What you mean the assassin who can shoot through walls from seven miles away? Yea..we'll hire her."

[Heridfel]

I think you may also be overlooking one very important thing, which makes the build very broken: under your "makes all intervening objects insubstantial" build (which only says "Objects," not "Objects providing Cover"), the bullets would also pass through any object that offers Protection. Which would include equipment and devices like suits of (power) armor.

I'm also not sure it'd be able to affect constructs/robots -- or, rather, the build as it is now would make the bullets harmlessly pass through constructs the same way they do any other obstacle, thus making you unable to harm them.

Object has a different meaning in the d20 system than in normal English. Mutants and Masterminds usually calls them inanimate objects when they use the term fully. Anything with a Wisdom score is not an object, and a construct has to have Wisdom to be able to sense things. Constructs would still be hit by the attack, and provide cover as normal.

As for the other part, that's a gap between the power's description ("passing through all objects") and the in-game effect ("ignore all cover between the gun and the target"). I think you're reading too much into it. Using that same logic, no equipment or devices would provide Protection against the Disruption Attack given as an associated effect of Insubstantial in Ultimate Power. Instead, that power is modeled as Penetrating (and Affects Corporeal, presuming that it can be used while using Insubstantial). At the least, you'd then have to decide what the save is for Insubstantial, since held (and worn) objects get a saving throw to avoid powers, just like the characters themselves. Overall, I'd just stick with understanding that it allows cover to be ignored, unless that cover is being given by a non-object.

[Dr Archeville]

Mutants and Masterminds usually calls them inanimate objects when they use the term fully. Anything with a Wisdom score is not an object, and a construct has to have Wisdom to be able to sense things. Constructs would still be hit by the attack, and provide cover as normal.

Which is why I started my phrase with "I'm also not sure..."

Also, the section on Constructs says "Constructs are immune to effects requiring Fortitude saving throws unless the effect works on inanimate objects," so (depending on how exactly one interprets that) they can be affected by effects with the Affects Objects extra. Though the Affects Objects Only Flaw you put on does put the kibosh on this line of thought.

As for the other part, that's a gap between the power's description ("passing through all objects") and the in-game effect ("ignore all cover between the gun and the target"). I think you're reading too much into it. Using that same logic, no equipment or devices would provide Protection against the Disruption Attack given as an associated effect of Insubstantial in Ultimate Power.

According to all the source materials -- i.e., the comics -- they don't Kitty Pryde's able to harm guys in power armor as easily as she does guys not wearing armor.

Instead, that power is modeled as Penetrating (and Affects Corporeal, presuming that it can be used while using Insubstantial).

That would be because not all things that occur in a comic make for fair & balanced gameplay. And the Penetrating aspect can be seen as a sort of "bypasses armor" effect, since it allows the attacker to have a chance of harming a character with Impervious Toughness (who might not normally be affected by an attack of equal intensity).

At the least, you'd then have to decide what the save is for Insubstantial, since held (and worn) objects get a saving throw to avoid powers, just like the characters themselves. Overall, I'd just stick with understanding that it allows cover to be ignored, unless that cover is being given by a non-object.

And I'd just stick with the Indirect power feat, as that's exactly the effect you're looking for (i.e., to bypass cover). Which wouldn't require an in-game explanation for "I can shoot through five concrete walls effortlessly but not a cow that happens to be in the way providing cover," and it'd work just as well against something whether it's held or not.

[Dr Archeville]

Though neither of these options may be appropriate to JoT's original questions -- "how do I shoot through walls to targets I see with my Penetrates Concealment vision" -- since "shooting through walls" (to me) implies actually shooting through the walls (and leaving bullet-sized holes in them), not bypassing them entirely. Which could be done with a Linked Drain Toughness (Affects Objects; Objects Only, Only objects that provide cover) effect, and making both it and the Blast have a Line area of effect. The Drain Toughness lowers the walls toughness so the Blast can more easily go through, and the Line area means it can blow through multiple walls to reach a target.