Help with a character

[Vaalus]

Ok, so I'm working up a pl 6 villain. I'm currently trying to work up a "best possible" and not looking at points until I'm done. What I have I know I'm going to have to severely trim down but I don't have a problem with that. What I have a question on is about how to do something with one of his powers.

I made a character once with elasticity and used telegraphic punch with him. The character I'm making now doesn't use elasticity, but teleport, and I'm wondering how to work up something like telegraphic punch, where he makes a little "portal" and punches somebody farther away. I'm not really sure how to do that.

[Barnum]

How about . . .

Strike X [Extra] - 3 PPs per rank.

If you plan on having a high-strength character you may want the Mighty Power Feat too, but if you do, the cost to up the range to Perception (2 PPs/rank) will also apply to your existing Str bonus.

Or you could buy Blast with one or more ranks of the Indirect Power Feat.

[Dr Archeville]

I'd add Indirect to that, too, if he can make the portals his fist comes out of appear in place other than directly between himself and the target. Like, say, to punch someone who is facing him in the back of their head, or to punch someone on the other side of a wall (assuming he can accurately sense them in some manner).

[Barnum]

I can't think of any advantage to buying Indirect on a Perception ranged power, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

1. As long as you can accurately sense the target, you can hit them with a Perception ranged power, whether they are right in front of you or on the other side of a wall. Indirect adds nothing to that ability.

2. As to punching someone in the back of the head, mechanically speaking, the only advantage to doing something like that is that it could count as a Surprise Attack . . . which is also completely moot on a Perception ranged power since it doesn't require an attack roll.

[Dr Archeville]

Your first point's spot on (to which I add "d'oh!"), but I'd disagree about the second.

I don't see anything about Perception range making Surprise attacks moot. Surprise attacks typically mean the target doesn't know it's coming (or doesn't know exactly where it's coming from), but unless the attack is Subtle or Mental, then if it's not Indirect it's still obviously coming directly from the attacker.

[Barnum]

I don't see anything about Perception range making Surprise attacks moot. Surprise attacks typically mean the target doesn't know it's coming (or doesn't know exactly where it's coming from), but unless the attack is Subtle or Mental, then if it's not Indirect it's still obviously coming directly from the attacker.

Surprise attacks only do two things:

1. Make the defender lose their dodge bonus to Defense against the attack.

2. Make the defender suffer an additional -2 to Defense against the attack.

Perception range attacks ignore Defense. They always hit any target the attacker can accurately perceive. No attack roll is required. Ergo . . . any changes to Defense incurred by a surprise is moot.

If the concern is to keep the attacker from knowing it was you that attacked, as you say, Subtle is what you want.

[Vaalus]

Ok, as I built the character I thought about what I wanted him to be and the origins of his powers. After a much thought out discussion with myself I found that he was going to be a villain who's powers originated when his research brought forth a complete understanding of how some things in physics work. From this, springing off of Johnny Quick from DC Comics, he uses his "formula" to allow him control over certain aspects in physics.

So here's what I have thus far. There's not a whole lot, as it's just a first draft. If it looks like it'll make it through the mechanical rulings I'll expand on his history and information.

Stats:

Str: 10 (+0)

Dex: 10 (+0)

Con: 10 (+0)

Int: 24 (+7)

Wis: 10 (+0)

Cha: 10 (+0)

Combat: 12pp

Attack: +0

Defense: +6 (+3 Flat Footed)

Initiative: +0

Grapple: +15 (Telekinesis)

Saves:

Toughness: +6 (Impervious & Reflective 2)

Fortitude: +6

Reflex: +6

Will: +9

Skills: 8pp (32 skill points)

Computers: +4 (+11)

Knowledge Physics: +10 (+17)

Notice: +5 (+5)

Search: +1 (+8)

Profession Scientist: +8 (+8)

Feats:

Powers:

-Complete Understanding of Physics (Magic) 15 (35pp)

--Base Power- Teleport 5 (+1 Accurate, +1 Area) (Change Direction, Change Velocity, Easy, Turnabout, Progression 6 1000 lbs)

AP: Blast 6 (+1 General Area Shapeable, PF: Affects Insubstantial, Precise, Subtle, Indirect, Progression x2 150 cubic feet, Knockback x6)

AP: ESP 7 (All senses, PF: Subtle, Dimensional)

AP: Forcefield 6 (+1 Impervious, +2 Reflective, PF: Subtle)

AP: Invisibility (All visual)

AP: Telekinesis 6 (+1 Damaging, +1 Perception, PF: Split Attack, Precise, Subtle, Indirect, Improved Range x2)

Drawbacks:

DC Block:

ATTACKS: SAVE DC: DAMAGE TYPE:

Blast 6 16/Reflex, 21/Toughness Bruise/Injury

Telekinesis 6 21/Toughness Bruise/Injury

[Dr Archeville]

Surprise attacks only do two things:

1. Make the defender lose their dodge bonus to Defense against the attack.

2. Make the defender suffer an additional -2 to Defense against the attack.

Perception range attacks ignore Defense. They always hit any target the attacker can accurately perceive. No attack roll is required. Ergo . . . any changes to Defense incurred by a surprise is moot.

You forgot 3. Open the target up to extra damage from the Sneak Attack feat.

......... but Subtle can cover that, too.

If the concern is to keep the attacker from knowing it was you that attacked, as you say, Subtle is what you want.

No, the concern was in having attacks come from directions other than directly from the attacker. Which would be useful if, say, the target has a Force Field that covers only the front half, and you cannot move yourself to get to the non-covered side. Indirect (Indirect 3, actually) would let you attack that non-covered side and bypass the field. (Yes, this is a rare situation, but it's the exact kind of thing Indirect is made for.)

Powers:

-Complete Understanding of Physics (Magic) 15 (35pp)

--Base Power- Teleport 5 (+1 Accurate, +1 Area) (Change Direction, Change Velocity, Easy, Turnabout, Progression 6 1000 lbs)

AP: Blast 6 (+1 General Area Shapeable, PF: Affects Insubstantial, Precise, Subtle, Indirect, Progression x2 150 cubic feet, Knockback x6)

AP: ESP 7 (All senses, PF: Subtle, Dimensional)

AP: Forcefield 6 (+1 Impervious, +2 Reflective, PF: Subtle)

AP: Invisibility (All visual)

AP: Telekinesis 6 (+1 Damaging, +1 Perception, PF: Split Attack, Precise, Subtle, Indirect, Improved Range x2)

You sure you want the Force Field in there as an AP? Defensive powers tend to be their own thing, not in an Array.

For the Dimensional on his ESP, you'll need to determine what one extra dimension it can peek into.

[Vaalus]

Defensive powers usually are, and it will probably be on most of the time when he's actually out doing things, but for the concept it makes more sense to me to have it be part of the array. The concept behind the powers he has is that he has an understanding of the fundamental laws of physics and his ability to control them. So his forcefield, for now, is tied to this ability.

As far as the ESP goes, not that it will ever matter probably, he'll be able to look into the dimension of Law, as his powers originate because of his understanding of the laws of physics.

[Barnum]

You forgot 3. Open the target up to extra damage from the Sneak Attack feat.

Yes I did. The Sneak Attack feat is as forgettable as it is useful.

Which would be useful if, say, the target has a Force Field that covers only the front half, and you cannot move yourself to get to the non-covered side. Indirect (Indirect 3, actually) would let you attack that non-covered side and bypass the field.

Given that D20 doesn't have combat facing, that would be rare indeed. It would essentially be something like "Power Loss: Indirect Attacks or Attacks from behind" . . . about as forgettable and useful as Sneak Attack. Though now that you mention it, if anyone needs some free points that will likely never be an actual Drawback . . . add "Power Loss: Indirect Attacks" to the list, right under "Weakness: some substance I just made up."

Seriously though, I would not buy the power with Indirect or Subtle. I would buy Strike X [Range] and if I ever needed ranks of Indirect or Subtle, I'd power stunt them.

Defensive powers usually are, and it will probably be on most of the time when he's actually out doing things, but for the concept it makes more sense to me to have it be part of the array. The concept behind the powers he has is that he has an understanding of the fundamental laws of physics and his ability to control them. So his forcefield, for now, is tied to this ability.

I wouldn't get stuck on this. It's fine if you want it, but arrays are not abilities. There is no reason why he could not have an independent Force Field with the same descriptors as the array. It would then be "tied to this abilitiy" too. Of course, it would cost more . . .

[Vaalus]

True it would cost more, but that wouldn't be the important thing. I guess it would come to me in his history if I wanted him to have an independent forcefield or not. I do want him to have one eventually but I don't really know how to do that. Is it possible to buy something that you have as an alternate power up to an actual power, essentially changing the alternate power to something else and paying for it in whole?

Is it possible to have Forcefield as a power in and of itself, and having impervious and reflective as a power in the array? Basically representing that he has defenses but they're only at their max when he isn't doing anything else?

Even if it's not I can easily make a forcefield by itself and buy up the impervious and reflective later.

[Barnum]

True it would cost more, but that wouldn't be the important thing. I guess it would come to me in his history if I wanted him to have an independent forcefield or not. I do want him to have one eventually but I don't really know how to do that. Is it possible to buy something that you have as an alternate power up to an actual power, essentially changing the alternate power to something else and paying for it in whole?

It is. We are usually very generous in allowing players to rearrange their powers like this when spending PPs.

Is it possible to have Forcefield as a power in and of itself, and having impervious and reflective as a power in the array? Basically representing that he has defenses but they're only at their max when he isn't doing anything else?

I have approved builds like that before in my own personal games, but to my knowledge we have never approved one like that here. We'd have to discuss it, if it is something you'd like to pursue. Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

[Vaalus]

Ok, I'll post it up with there being a regular forcefield and the impervious and reflective part is an alternate power in the array. If it doesn't get approved as that from one of the other Refs I won't have a problem using it as a regular forcefield and increasing it in power as time progresses.

[Dr Archeville]

Yes I did. The Sneak Attack feat is as forgettable as it is useful.

Our opinions obviously differ. I've found Sneak Attack to be very useful.

Given that D20 doesn't have combat facing, that would be rare indeed. It would essentially be something like "Power Loss: Indirect Attacks or Attacks from behind" . . . about as forgettable and useful as Sneak Attack.

M&M doesn't use facing like older editions of D&D did, true, but that doesn't mean it's not useful to keep track of which way folks are facing. (Otherwise, everyone gets Radius on all their visual senses for free.) And if "attacks from behind" come up once every few adventures (say, as rare as 1 in 6), that's an Uncommon drawback

Though now that you mention it, if anyone needs some free points that will likely never be an actual Drawback . . . add "Power Loss: Indirect Attacks" to the list, right under "Weakness: some substance I just made up."

Like Dakana Crystals? They're something someone just made up.

If you take something as a drawback, it's the GM's/Ref's job to make sure it shows up, no matter what it is. You could make a character with a Vulnerability to wiener schnitzel that's been soaked in irradiated water on the surface of Mars for thirty years and then somehow managed to survive the fall from space into the atmosphere of the Earth... and if you make it a very common drawback, it's going to be pretty darn common for that character to encounter them. Similarly, you could make a character who's Vulnerable to the presence of Nitrogen (the stuff ~78% of Earth's atmosphere is made up of), but take it an uncommon drawback, and it wouldn't come up that often for that character.

Seriously though, I would not buy the power with Indirect or Subtle. I would buy Strike X [Range] and if I ever needed ranks of Indirect or Subtle, I'd power stunt them.

So you wouldn't have them unless you need them, in which case you'd have them? Why not just take them at the start? Especially if it fits the concept?

I have approved builds like that before in my own personal games, but to my knowledge we have never approved one like that here. We'd have to discuss it, if it is something you'd like to pursue. Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

I've got absolutely no problem with that, either (and have used similar things for my own games) :)

[Barnum]

Our opinions obviously differ. I've found Sneak Attack to be very useful.

Read my sentence again. You will see your error, I think.

And if "attacks from behind" come up once every few adventures (say, as rare as 1 in 6), that's an Uncommon drawback

If a GM was going to allow your opponents to move around behind you to bypass the Force Field, then I'd probably call it a -2 Flaw, because it is going to come up with just about every attack. Just about every character in M&M can move that far in a round, and just about every smart player will do it (if the GM house rules in some combat facing).

They're something someone just made up.

That's not what I said, but I think you understood my point anyway. I also think you know that that isn't how drawbacks work around here.

So you wouldn't have them unless you need them, in which case you'd have them? Why not just take them at the start? Especially if it fits the concept?

Wow. 0-3. Too bad. That isn't what I said either. I generally buy my powers "plane jane," and power stunt the fancy stuff. The Perception Strike with a comic-booky descriptor fits the concept he described just fine. If he wanted to do something fancy once in a while like attack from behind with an indirect, subtle sneak attack, that's just what stunts are for. ;)

[Dr Archeville]

Read my sentence again. You will see your error, I think.

I'm seeing that you said Sneak Attack is forgettable and uselesss, forgettable & useless enough to not bother considering. Please enlighten me as to my misunderstanding. And please do not just re-post your words, explain it to me, since it seems I am not picking up on your exact meaning the first go 'round.

That's not what I said [re], but I think you understood my point anyway.

Apparently I'm not. Please explain further.

I also think you know that that isn't how drawbacks work around here.

Actually, I was not aware of that.

Wow. 0-3. Too bad. That isn't what I said either. I generally buy my powers "plane jane," and power stunt the fancy stuff. The Perception Strike with a comic-booky descriptor fits the concept he described just fine. If he wanted to do something fancy once in a while like attack from behind with an indirect, subtle sneak attack, that's just what stunts are for.

What did you say, then? Because what I saw -- that you'd just buy the base power, and add stuff in-play as needed via stunting -- seems to be exactly what you said. What am I misunderstanding?

Stunts are for 'fancy' once-in-a-while things, sure, but if something is a core part of the power's concept, I see no reason for it not to be in the base build.

[Seren]

Well, I'm not completely sure on most of the stuff here (except the Sneak Attack issue), but in order to attempt to help out with the original subject...

For Perception Strike vs. Indirect Strike, obviously there is an overlap in the abilities. If you don't want to have the opponent able to miss, you'll want Perception. If you want to do more (or less) damage than your PL, Indirect Ranged is the way to go.

Okay, I'm actually not sure, giving it some thought.

The first rank ignores cover, second makes it a radius of origin points from you, and the third makes it a radius of origin points from or towards you.

Perception Range requires you to be able to notice the target with an accurate sense (for humans, Vision, Tactile) - if they have total cover from all of those, you can't affect the target.

So, if they have total cover, Indirect won't help Perception Range. But if they don't, you can sense them with an accurate sense, so you'll be able to hit them. The first rank doesn't seem useful.

The only time the second rank seems useful is if they're touching you while behind you - but you can't see them or turn around.

The third rank, though is a bit iffy. First, if you're attacking someone's back (that's facing you), it could easily be argued that you can't see their back. If you just need to be able to accurately sense the target to attack them from behind, which is resonable from the second rank - then it would only be useful in the same conditions as the second rank except if there's nowhere on the side facing you that you can attack.

Regarding surprise attacks, any number of ranks (even 0) could be argued for it - it's just easier to do as you go up. In any case, it's obvious you're doing it (without subtle) - but if you're having your arm disappear and reappear somewhere else, it probably should be.

As for the Doctor, this is one of the things I really like - alternate meanings...

In this case we go back... (summing up a little for time/space)

I'd add Indirect to that, too, if he can make the portals his fist comes out of appear in place other than directly between himself and the target. Like, say, to punch someone who is facing him in the back of their head, or to punch someone on the other side of a wall (assuming he can accurately sense them in some manner).

2. As to punching someone in the back of the head, mechanically speaking, the only advantage to doing something like that is that it could count as a Surprise Attack . . . which is also completely moot on a Perception ranged power since it doesn't require an attack roll.

I don't see anything about Perception range making Surprise attacks moot. Surprise attacks typically mean the target doesn't know it's coming (or doesn't know exactly where it's coming from), but unless the attack is Subtle or Mental, then if it's not Indirect it's still obviously coming directly from the attacker.

Surprise attacks only do two things:

1. Make the defender lose their dodge bonus to Defense against the attack.

2. Make the defender suffer an additional -2 to Defense against the attack.

Perception range attacks ignore Defense. They always hit any target the attacker can accurately perceive. No attack roll is required. Ergo . . . any changes to Defense incurred by a surprise is moot.

You forgot 3. Open the target up to extra damage from the Sneak Attack feat.

......... but Subtle can cover that, too.

Yes I did. The Sneak Attack feat is as forgettable as it is useful.

Our opinions obviously differ. I've found Sneak Attack to be very useful.

Read my sentence again. You will see your error, I think.

I'm seeing that you said Sneak Attack is forgettable and uselesss, forgettable & useless enough to not bother considering. Please enlighten me as to my misunderstanding. And please do not just re-post your words, explain it to me, since it seems I am not picking up on your exact meaning the first go 'round.

In fact, as you may see - Sneak Attack being forgettable and useless is not possible (according to Barnum)

If we give the feat two qualities - forgetableness and usefulness, both ranked from 1 to 10, 1 being the lowest. Barnum's comment says it's as forgettable as it is useful - or, it's forgetableness and usefulness are equal.

Taken at it's extremes, that means either both are 1 or both are 10.

If both are 1, it means that everyone always remembers and takes it into consideration - but it's so unuseful that only beginners would ever use it, as there are things much better for cheaper that almost always fit the character better.

If both are 10, it means that no one ever remembers it and has to be reminded each time it might come up - but it's so useful that it's a wonder that people don't take it for characters that it may only technically fit.

Seeing as you had earlier reminded Barnum of Sneak Attack being the third thing sneak attacks do, I'm assuming that the rank of either quality (and thus, both qualities) is greater than 5. Maybe not 10, but falling on the side of generally forgotten. :D

[Barnum]

I'm seeing that you said Sneak Attack is forgettable and uselesss, forgettable & useless enough to not bother considering. Please enlighten me as to my misunderstanding.

I think Sneak Attack is very useful, especially on bloated attack powers (high number of PPs/rank). I also tend to forget about it. Hence as forgettable as it is useful.

Now if I had said, "as memorable as it is useful . . ."

Apparently I'm not. Please explain further.

We may just be misunderstanding each other here, but I think there is a huge difference between "Something made up" like Kryptonite, and "something I just made up" like "Blooberite." If we were playing a game in the DC universe (for example), I might very well run into a player with Kryptonite (something made up), but will never run into "Blooberite" (something I just made up) unless the GM goes out of her way to throw it at me . . . something that will most likely never happen here (see below).

Actually, I was not aware of that.

Most players are writing their own stories, even when there is a Ref involved. Players can easily avoid the object of their drawbacks, if the drawbacks are carefully chosen (like weakness to a substance "I just made up."). Players can easily avoid Refs altogether, if they want.

That just isn't how drawbacks work around here.

Stunts are for 'fancy' once-in-a-while things, sure, but if something is a core part of the power's concept, I see no reason for it not to be in the base build.

Which is exactly why I said that I didn't think it was a core part of the power he was describing. I would quote that part for you again, but you asked me not to.

Sneak Attack being forgettable and useless is not possible.

:clap:

Honestly, I'd give Sneak Attack a "useful" coefficient of about 6 on most builds, but a forgetful coefficient (for me) of about 7. Most character builders aren't looking to build characters with sub-PL attack powers, and once they learn that Sneak Attacks can't break PL, they usually forget about it. Ergo, I almost never approve characters with Sneak Attacks. Ergo, I tend to forget about it.

It's a fact that I'm not proud of. :cry:

[Dr Archeville]

I think Sneak Attack is very useful, especially on bloated attack powers (high number of PPs/rank). I also tend to forget about it. Hence as forgettable as it is useful.

Now if I had said, "as memorable as it is useful . . ."

Ah, okay, it was a case of me horribly misunderstanding you! I apologize.

We may just be misunderstanding each other here, but I think there is a huge difference between "Something made up" like Kryptonite, and "something I just made up" like "Blooberite." If we were playing a game in the DC universe (for example), I might very well run into a player with Kryptonite (something made up), but will never run into "Blooberite" (something I just made up) unless the GM goes out of her way to throw it at me . . . something that will most likely never happen here (see below).

Well, I don't really see much of a difference there. Hear me out on this: when Kryptonite was first introduced to the DCU (first seen -- er, heard -- on the radio show, not the comics!), it was a wholly new and made-up thing. The announcers & writers had to go out of their way to throw it at Supes. In time it became an established thing. I don't see why the same couldn't happen with a new substance introduced as the bane of some new character. At first it may seem 'forced,' yeah, same as Kryptonite was, but in time it could become as accepted as K-rock. It's part of campaign-building that all players take part in.

Most players are writing their own stories, even when there is a Ref involved. Players can easily avoid the object of their drawbacks, if the drawbacks are carefully chosen (like weakness to a substance "I just made up."). Players can easily avoid Refs altogether, if they want.

That just isn't how drawbacks work around here.

Fair and good points. But, if a Player in the course of writing their stories never encounters a Drawback they paid for -- if, say, someone playing a mage with the "must gesture & incant" Power Loss drawback goes on several adventures but never once finds himself in a situation where he cannot gesture/incant -- should the Refs not intervene and tell the player they need to have their PC encounter their Drawback, or re-edit the char to get rid of those points?

Which is exactly why I said that I didn't think it was a core part of the power he was describing. I would quote that part for you again, but you asked me not to.

Ah, so it's a case of two people seeing things differently. Which, y'know, happens. A lot. Because everyone sees things differently, sometimes slightly, sometimes greatly. ('Till I set up my hive mind....) Sorry.

Honestly, I'd give Sneak Attack a "useful" coefficient of about 6 on most builds, but a forgetful coefficient (for me) of about 7. Most character builders aren't looking to build characters with sub-PL attack powers, and once they learn that Sneak Attacks can't break PL, they usually forget about it. Ergo, I almost never approve characters with Sneak Attacks. Ergo, I tend to forget about it.

It's a fact that I'm not proud of. :cry:

I tend to forget that I come to places like this to get away from stresses in my life, not to add to them by getting into lengthy arguments/debates. It's something I'm very not proud of. :oops:

[Barnum]

Fair and good points. But, if a Player in the course of writing their stories never encounters a Drawback they paid for -- if, say, someone playing a mage with the "must gesture & incant" Power Loss drawback goes on several adventures but never once finds himself in a situation where he cannot gesture/incant -- should the Refs not intervene and tell the player they need to have their PC encounter their Drawback, or re-edit the char to get rid of those points?

I just posted in the super-secret Ref Forum (or as we like to call it "The Rat Cave") concerning the feasibility of "drawback policing." We shall see . . .

:bat: <-- "Fears the hive mind . . . a little bit."